From lojban+bncCO2dsrjkARCquNPhBBoE8j_7wQ@googlegroups.com Wed Jul 07 12:57:47 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWakY-0005Cc-Fa; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 12:57:46 -0700 Received: by gwj23 with SMTP id 23sf29346gwj.16 for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 12:57:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Y6DS6pM/e0GcpP0hLyn2LloBA3EpKmC9Tb2apU9EUew=; b=LiRGOlq37K7+sNI4vCeaoHuZM9FgfBCUamhyJTSPWQjalbAJAhtbGJyN6pJTczDjMT jvuY+6sCNU8BljKkOlnkPevWJS9zK5DbyR289o/+z7K2CRSadjttiY0x17oGhshGZc0m Pxr9AAXBWWjan1kMtJjIrjNrv8C0mMxDiCLaU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Er+8CxAmtULMsXJYcmRNgEvA0jwHgYQM00vnVAnqhDOOo5bSH3YCYdZMR3GUoMLkJa bJyO/mGwI3UPx2UTwHpAAhwLTXOcBb9kzz3i7/5wlOTnoHS4nO8i03XFQgrlPT5yRD/V oaenKjgCoD+SXOcmzZUr43H9yLbnmhkBqUog4= Received: by 10.100.209.1 with SMTP id h1mr547561ang.66.1278532650164; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 12:57:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.160.35 with SMTP id m35ls8322351ano.2.p; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 12:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.124.18 with SMTP id w18mr4999023anc.5.1278532649285; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 12:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.35.166 with SMTP id p38mr66968qad.27.1278527985050; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.35.166 with SMTP id p38mr66967qad.27.1278527985020; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pi.meson.org (pi.meson.org [96.56.207.26]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id j8si4085647qcu.6.2010.07.07.11.39.44; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 96.56.207.26 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mark@kli.org) client-ip=96.56.207.26; Received: (qmail 21858 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2010 18:39:44 -0000 Received: from nagas.meson.org (192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 7 Jul 2010 18:39:44 -0000 Message-ID: <4C34C9F0.9070303@kli.org> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 14:39:44 -0400 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100430 Fedora/3.0.4-2.fc12 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] beyond good and evil References: In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: mark@kli.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 96.56.207.26 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mark@kli.org) smtp.mail=mark@kli.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 07/07/2010 02:16 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > So I was browsing a free e-books web-site and saw Nietzsche's "Beyond > Good and Evil" and though "hmmm, now how would one say that in lojban" > (the actual title page of the book was in german or something which is > what made me think of trying to translate the title). > > The closest thing that I could come up with was {ze'o co'e lo vrude .e > lo palci}. How should lojban handle vagueness of this kind? Anybody > have any suggestions/critiques? You're touching on an issue that has been bugging me for years: I want a new member of LAhE that makes a sumti into a name (maybe. Or maybe something else). There are all kinds of complicated names for things out there that we don't seem to handle in Lojban as well as I'd like. Names which are sentences/phrases ("Dances with Wolves" is an obvious example, but not a great one, since it really means more like "Dancer with wolves"), like "They Might Be Giants" (ok, that also could be better translated as "those that might be giants") or "Touching the Void" or "Saving Private Ryan"... Other kinds of sentence fragments, like, say "Blueberries for Sal" {la jbari beseva'u la sal} doesn't seem right (and not just because of the lousy choice of BAI). Prepositional phrases like you're talking about: "Beyond Good and Evil," "Between a Rock and a Hard Place", etc. Descriptions like "Born to Kvetch"... Even fairly simple ones don't always go over so well. Let alone really complicated ones like "Chapter four, in which Eeyore Loses a Tail and Pooh Finds One". I sort of see some of these working using nu or du'u or maybe even lu/li'u preceded by a LAhE to turn the quote into a name (without having to go all the way out to reach for la'o). If we use nu/du'u then we wind up converting it into a sumti with a gadri and then a name, which seems roundabout, but is {la nu bandu la poi sonci .rai,n.} really right? Actually, maybe. But it doesn't seem general enough. I have to come up with better examples. ~mark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.