From lojban+bncCJuP2OfEBBCM0tPhBBoEhKwwFA@googlegroups.com Wed Jul 07 13:52:59 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWbbk-0006ho-FS; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:58 -0700 Received: by qyk30 with SMTP id 30sf6423155qyk.16 for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:sender :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UrzPOj29OCfxC3A+CMtC8BrgusTI94eHd73wNr7hixg=; b=aRdr96c3YIPkeaozlDheuKOLgD5aSjNL77iCuOPgG04kCKic0uCvEZaGol3LtTuqFW 40xJy5kmJhlNhWkgt39n0PPRLOszD1JTzUTZY5G1H6dJBt8Egps9mnzqsKdtc896m8AD v5NeQHmm6nZLUjrwED+nCMHlmNDzixIkq3RJ0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=fu2u6irTYnrxDf8fJKIsq2HzCITcN/qPCUZRveX94wizI/OhXhNEV2pud3DqBHqof1 UWoosSapOdy13T/5NvzVI2cBAlKcEqT87Iw0Ph9sbqqszfcUPDXtoa+24BqnRnMaWMzN 0lp5//oFLCNn+I1hmuSHnc4x9jyXEV6nYX+FE= Received: by 10.229.216.133 with SMTP id hi5mr938788qcb.13.1278535948048; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.186.140 with SMTP id cs12ls197946qcb.0.p; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.231.149 with SMTP id jq21mr546158qcb.27.1278535947135; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.231.149 with SMTP id jq21mr546156qcb.27.1278535947078; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f47.google.com (mail-vw0-f47.google.com [209.85.212.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id f7si4155059qcq.2.2010.07.07.13.52.25; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.47; Received: by vws3 with SMTP id 3so131714vws.6 for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.122.24 with SMTP id j24mr3565745vcr.14.1278535944119; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.44.206 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 13:52:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4C34C9F0.9070303@kli.org> References: <4C34C9F0.9070303@kli.org> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 16:52:24 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] beyond good and evil From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: adamgarrigus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamgarrigus@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamgarrigus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68e9a55c8286f048ad25884 --0016e68e9a55c8286f048ad25884 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > On 07/07/2010 02:16 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> So I was browsing a free e-books web-site and saw Nietzsche's "Beyond >> Good and Evil" and though "hmmm, now how would one say that in lojban" >> (the actual title page of the book was in german or something which is >> what made me think of trying to translate the title). >> >> The closest thing that I could come up with was {ze'o co'e lo vrude .e >> lo palci}. How should lojban handle vagueness of this kind? Anybody >> have any suggestions/critiques? >> > > You're touching on an issue that has been bugging me for years: I want a > new member of LAhE that makes a sumti into a name (maybe. Or maybe > something else). There are all kinds of complicated names for things out > there that we don't seem to handle in Lojban as well as I'd like. Names > which are sentences/phrases ("Dances with Wolves" is an obvious example, but > not a great one, since it really means more like "Dancer with wolves"), like > "They Might Be Giants" (ok, that also could be better translated as "those > that might be giants") or "Touching the Void" or "Saving Private Ryan"... > Other kinds of sentence fragments, like, say "Blueberries for Sal" {la > jbari beseva'u la sal} doesn't seem right (and not just because of the lousy > choice of BAI). Prepositional phrases like you're talking about: "Beyond > Good and Evil," "Between a Rock and a Hard Place", etc. Descriptions like > "Born to Kvetch"... Even fairly simple ones don't always go over so well. > Let alone really complicated ones like "Chapter four, in which Eeyore Loses > a Tail and Pooh Finds One". > > I sort of see some of these working using nu or du'u or maybe even lu/li'u > preceded by a LAhE to turn the quote into a name (without having to go all > the way out to reach for la'o). If we use nu/du'u then we wind up > converting it into a sumti with a gadri and then a name, which seems > roundabout, but is {la nu bandu la poi sonci .rai,n.} really right? > Actually, maybe. But it doesn't seem general enough. > > I have to come up with better examples. I make a distinction (at least I think I do, I haven't been thinking much about Lojban lately) between names and titles. The name of a person, band, city, &c. calls for {la} or {la'o}. But the title of a book or a movie wants something like {la'e lu jbari se va'u la sal li'u}. The difference is that the latter generally carries meaning, while the former generally does not. Is that salient? mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 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On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Mark E. = Shoulson <mark@kli.org= > wrote:
On 07/07/2010 02:16 PM, Luke Bergen wrote:
So I was browsing a free e-books web-site and saw Nietzsche's "Bey= ond
Good and Evil" and though "hmmm, now how would one say that in lo= jban"
(the actual title page of the book was in german or something which is
what made me think of trying to translate the title).

The closest thing that I could come up with was {ze'o co'e lo vrude= .e
lo palci}. =A0How should lojban handle vagueness of this kind? =A0Anybody have any suggestions/critiques?

You're touching on an issue that has been bugging me for years: I want = a new member of LAhE that makes a sumti into a name (maybe. =A0Or maybe som= ething else). =A0There are all kinds of complicated names for things out th= ere that we don't seem to handle in Lojban as well as I'd like. Nam= es which are sentences/phrases ("Dances with Wolves" is an obviou= s example, but not a great one, since it really means more like "Dance= r with wolves"), like "They Might Be Giants" (ok, that also = could be better translated as "those that might be giants") or &q= uot;Touching the Void" or "Saving Private Ryan"... =A0Other = kinds of sentence fragments, like, say "Blueberries for Sal" =A0{= la jbari beseva'u la sal} doesn't seem right (and not just because = of the lousy choice of BAI). =A0Prepositional phrases like you're talki= ng about: "Beyond Good and Evil," "Between a Rock and a Hard= Place", etc. =A0Descriptions like "Born to Kvetch"... Even = fairly simple ones don't always go over so well. =A0Let alone really co= mplicated ones like "Chapter four, in which Eeyore Loses a Tail and Po= oh Finds One".

I sort of see some of these working using nu or du'u or maybe even lu/l= i'u preceded by a LAhE to turn the quote into a name (without having to= go all the way out to reach for la'o). =A0If we use nu/du'u then w= e wind up converting it into a sumti with a gadri and then a name, which se= ems roundabout, but is {la nu bandu la poi sonci .rai,n.} really right? =A0= Actually, maybe. =A0But it doesn't seem general enough.

I have to come up with better examples.

I make a disti= nction (at least I think I do, I haven't been thinking much about Lojba= n lately) between names and titles. The name of a person, band, city, &= c. calls for {la} or {la'o}. But the title of a book or a movie wants s= omething like {la'e lu jbari se va'u la sal li'u}. The differen= ce is that the latter generally carries meaning, while the former generally= does not.

Is that salient?

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan
<= br>

--
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