From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDdr9fhBBoEBHIP4A@googlegroups.com Thu Jul 08 06:51:58 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWrVq-0004TR-3y; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:51:58 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf1626561gxk.16 for ; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:51:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :sender:received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xOdifPw5VcsJ3TD2l6hg7Sk/f6k+hmtS8zky+knr1Ik=; b=DsJmgHlIQy2ATaf0ZwVsWqewdAOYyi58yvqC8YO93lHBmLySCKe4/Q54vN9nR743yh 6WItON1rysuNASTeRhPotuUE+UStll2Z1p33JDCHT0JCKLPosgQDdzNblTZo7g//RtXo PkQ1Yj7oApnkEx1yHl7aihKRlt+Gg/8a0Sofs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=wfryiVjNQBiRM0VNT+pvmkMv1DX59AqA+1bt/4vkyejSDU2g3kWFbyUwmssMRry3PY uncXeb1Uxxq+1zqOacIQOiXPJUIH50QchOp9LcpXGFnV52IzAxZzrPFi/gM6DFHxjXgj FgHGWfoHKeaWytXfPMJWG677sQfHZO0K7427w= Received: by 10.101.141.14 with SMTP id t14mr397133ann.53.1278597085869; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:51:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.173.10 with SMTP id a10ls3218766anp.7.p; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.131.14 with SMTP id i14mr6507465ann.16.1278597085366; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.148.14 with SMTP id n14mr516390wbv.26.1278594597662; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.148.14 with SMTP id n14mr516389wbv.26.1278594597636; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com (mail-wy0-f169.google.com [74.125.82.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id u3si5927186wbb.3.2010.07.08.06.09.56; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.169; Received: by wyj26 with SMTP id 26so553743wyj.28 for ; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.145.1 with SMTP id b1mr6667000wbv.132.1278594596437; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.86.211 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jul 2010 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3c4ace6b-a18e-4306-a2b1-8cef523e20f3@u36g2000prg.googlegroups.com> References: <3c4ace6b-a18e-4306-a2b1-8cef523e20f3@u36g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 14:09:56 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban Kids Show From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163683362abb8132048ae0009c --00163683362abb8132048ae0009c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 8 July 2010 07:04, Lindar wrote: > So day one > will be basic sumti-selbri relationships, COI, ko, etc. Day two would > introduce LE as the exchange student learns the names of things around > the house. > I think the most basic / simplest forms in Lojban are one-word observative and one-word attitudinal: jbogu'e (Lojbanistan!) -- what something is coi (Hello!) -- what you feel An observative (jbogu'e) and its sumti-fication (lo jbogu'e) are basically the same in that they both tells what something is with one selbri, but differ in the syntactical position/level where their meaning is rendered. Also, consider: lo jbogu'e cu jbogu'e -- LE SELBRI represents the SELBRI's x1 When you introduce a LE sumti, you are introducing the notion of place structure at the same time. So I think it would be more effective for students to be systematically presented with these two items of knowledge (place structure & sumti-fication) on the same day (day two, if these are too much for the first day). On day three, students could benefit from learning how to make the most of the brivlas and attitudinals introduced on day one, with only a few additional basic cmavo: na jbogu'e (Not Lojbanistan!) -- what something is not vi jbogu'e (Here Lojbanistan!) -- what & how something is se jbogu'e (Lojbanist!) -- what something is, with respect to the argument base (x1) coi nai (Bye!) -- what you feel, with respect to the scalar base -- as well as with combinations of these: vi na se jbogu'e (Here not Lojbanist!) And then might come a need to make expressions clearer by specifying the arguments. This would be when kids could start practicing full-fledged but still simple bridis as well as acquiring basic pro-sumtis: ti jbogu'e mi (This, Lojbanistan, we --> This is our Lojbanistan.) mi na se jbogu'e (I, not Lojbanist. --> I'm not a Lojbanist.) It's also important that they at this point start to see differences, if any, between Lojban and their native tongue. For example, English likes "argument + be + argument" to say what something is, while Lojban mostly can say the same thing with just a pair of "argument + predicate", e.g. "ti jbogu'e" instead of "ti du lo jbogu'e". -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00163683362abb8132048ae0009c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 8 July 2010 07:04, Lindar &= lt;lindarthebard@yahoo.com&g= t; wrote:
So day one
will be basic sumti-selbri relationships, COI, ko, etc. Day two would
introduce LE as the exchange student learns the names of things around
the house.

I think the most basic / simplest forms= in Lojban are one-word observative and one-word attitudinal:

=A0jbo= gu'e (Lojbanistan!) -- what something is

=A0coi (Hello!) -- what= you feel

An observative (jbogu'e) and its sumti-fication (lo jbogu'e) ar= e basically the same in that they both tells what something is with one sel= bri, but differ in the syntactical position/level where their meaning is re= ndered. Also, consider:

=A0lo jbogu'e cu jbogu'e -- LE SELBRI represents the SELBRI'= ;s x1

When you introduce a LE sumti, you are introducing the notion= of place structure at the same time. So I think it would be more effective= for students to be systematically presented with these two items of knowle= dge (place structure & sumti-fication) on the same day (day two, if the= se are too much for the first day).

On day three, students could benefit from learning how to make the most= of the brivlas and attitudinals introduced on day one, with only a few add= itional basic cmavo:

=A0na jbogu'e (Not Lojbanistan!) -- what so= mething is not

=A0vi jbogu'e (Here Lojbanistan!) -- what & how something is
=A0se jbogu'e (Lojbanist!) -- what something is, with respect to t= he argument base (x1)

=A0coi nai (Bye!) -- what you feel, with respe= ct to the scalar base

-- as well as with combinations of these:

=A0vi na s= e jbogu'e (Here not Lojbanist!)

And then might come a need to ma= ke expressions clearer by specifying the arguments. This would be when kids= could start practicing full-fledged but still simple bridis as well as acq= uiring basic pro-sumtis:

=A0ti jbogu'e mi (This, Lojbanistan, we --> This is our Lojbanis= tan.)

=A0mi na se jbogu'e (I, not Lojbanist. --> I'm not = a Lojbanist.)

It's also important that they at this point start = to see differences, if any, between Lojban and their native tongue. For exa= mple, English likes "argument + be + argument" to say what someth= ing is, while Lojban mostly can say the same thing with just a pair of &quo= t;argument + predicate", e.g. "ti jbogu'e" instead of &q= uot;ti du lo jbogu'e".

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