From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCH26_jBBoEJHt6sA@googlegroups.com Wed Aug 18 07:26:41 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Oljb7-0008Q6-2m; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:40 -0700 Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12sf395263qyk.16 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=YNMBn0uYgVcJLt6YlkFUXVXTG6pjSyQ1K9vNMEovgvg=; b=2RcyHMODQsJfOvt/1UtCtsv9Kc8t39XYud7lQ3zdFL8+O05hd7lHEBGrmLVLpMWefF Bi5DJwgDD4lME/Aqr2HCzNpxTZM/At8zMJaJ5pUDVP1Hv3vOoaq5qmCltiBjhG1qwRO5 XLJeTUoLtoH0wprslMIfwoz543tmUEPu2OZYk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=aoNMzInM8+tGkgHCI/7a04hSUSu/yopeJ7z3mqVsvg4wWvTm6kjxiEVCMY3Bu0/9SA rTBD/UmN5sUd3lWmhpPW1MpjjLIb+eMdbGgRHjin5PC3PcwEcdEhFNUvBG0Uoxk1ziIY GwJYrcnLLCaNJ0NfDeizWVRV9b9O/8kum1q0o= Received: by 10.224.3.228 with SMTP id 36mr455576qao.1.1282141575368; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.66.155 with SMTP id n27ls131265qai.5.p; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.32.17 with SMTP id a17mr659981qad.6.1282141574527; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.32.17 with SMTP id a17mr659980qad.6.1282141574488; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id c41si177283qcs.12.2010.08.18.07.26.13; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.54; Received: by mail-vw0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 7so809495vws.27 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.61.9 with SMTP id r9mr5001067vch.263.1282141573166; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.63.10 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.63.10 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:26:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:26:13 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Trilling/rolling R From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e8873dd0537db048e19d930 --e0cb4e8873dd0537db048e19d930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .uacai. ok, I see what you're saying about the flap in 'attaboy'. That was one of the things that concerned me about (what I thought was) my lack of skill at making the tap. I was worried that it sounded too much like certain uses of 't' like in 'better' or 'd' like in bedding. But I guess this isn't really a concern since those ponounciations of 't' and 'b' would definitely be wrong. Ok, 'r' like that tap type noise I think I can do. Thanks for your help everyone On Aug 18, 2010 9:15 AM, "Ivo Doko" wrote: On 15 August 2010 21:18, Luke Bergen wrote: > (what exactly is the > differe... It's the same thing. Correct linguistic term is alveolar trill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill), but in English-speaking areas it is also known as rolled r. However, there is a difference between alveolar trill "r" and alveolar flap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_flap) "=C9=BE". Alveolar trill can be seen as multiple repeated alveolar flaps (carrrrramba), while alveolar flap is even present in some English accents. For example, "attaboy" and "attagirl" are in some English accents pronounced as /=CB=88=C3=A6=C9=BE=C9=99b=C9=94=CB=90=C9=AA/ and /=CB=88=C3=A6=C9=BE=C9=99= g=C9=9C=CB=90=C9=B9l/, respectively, with "tt" being pronounced as alveolar flap. In some accents "better" is /=CB=88b=C9=9B=C9=BE=C9=99/ a= nd "glottis" is /=CB=88gl=C9=91=C9=BE=C9=A8s/. In most Indo-European languages which feature alveolar trill and alveolar flap, they are treated as allophones (e.g. in Serbo-Croatian), while in some (e.g. in Spanish) they're treated as separate phonemes. As for how to pronounce them, I can't really help through e-mail, can I? :P --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To po... --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --e0cb4e8873dd0537db048e19d930 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

.uacai. ok, I see what you're saying about the flap in 'attaboy&= #39;.=C2=A0 That was one of the things that concerned me about (what I thou= ght was) my lack of skill at making the tap.=C2=A0 I was worried that it so= unded too much like certain uses of 't' like in 'better' or= 'd' like in bedding.=C2=A0 But I guess this isn't really a con= cern since those ponounciations of 't' and 'b' would defini= tely be wrong.

Ok, 'r' like that tap type noise I think I can do.

Thanks for your help everyone

On Aug 18, 2010 9:15 AM, "Ivo Doko" = <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:=

On 15 August 2010 21:18, Luke Bergen <= ;lukeabergen@gmail.com> wro= te:
> (what exactly is the
> differe...

It's the same th= ing. Correct linguistic term is alveolar trill
(= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill), but in English-speaking areas it is also known as rolled r.

However, there is a difference between alveolar trill "r" and alv= eolar
flap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_flap) "=C9=BE". Alv= eolar trill
can be seen as multiple repeated alveolar flaps (carrrrramba), while
alveolar flap is even present in some English accents. For example,
"attaboy" and "attagirl" are in some English accents pr= onounced as
/=CB=88=C3=A6=C9=BE=C9=99b=C9=94=CB=90=C9=AA/ and /=CB=88=C3=A6=C9=BE=C9=99= g=C9=9C=CB=90=C9=B9l/, respectively, with "tt" being pronounced as alveolar flap. In some accents "better" is /=CB=88b=C9=9B=C9= =BE=C9=99/ and "glottis" is
/=CB=88gl=C9=91=C9=BE=C9=A8s/.

In most Indo-European languages which feature alveolar trill and
alveolar flap, they are treated as allophones (e.g. in
Serbo-Croatian), while in some (e.g. in Spanish) they're treated as
separate phonemes.

As for how to pronounce them, I can't really help through e-mail, can I= ? :P


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