From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhD89sjjBBoE5gshsQ@googlegroups.com Mon Aug 23 02:13:02 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OnT5A-0005Mc-VN; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:13:02 -0700 Received: by wyb42 with SMTP id 42sf1641804wyb.16 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:12:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=IK2aQcDX2FhctWtJlJvmNoGr+rr1bD9i8xm0YOVgQzs=; b=B2b8J06lxx3JHmOQhOKqTLtgtiUa5FyLUyanLVMkXbrxrB5mFTh/kpCXLwojW6/E6Z znMZGwRJ6derVZ0+de9t0EfR9u3ePZRexcGzc64x20KI2VxR4vT7ZIVTQQZiaAXujKQS XSWNwEfnIcU/cC4rXQ+SEGxRBYe06bKhM8O30= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=3aZ6AQwnETUkoN0bi4sK5GAFPjaPS8yg3Ij30mQsIFAw5s9pzdClISDQKDqEtCWcxC jqqzr1srClWZKzBPnAyDgRKgB87CGa6xzkLUYxJIYEjOfPr1brF0ORI5bqpMbvvNzKCP WZ/+lba8FJohb9BXXtjBtykbC4hwtw3hFWzoY= Received: by 10.216.145.130 with SMTP id p2mr964158wej.22.1282554748935; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:12:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.28.140 with SMTP id g12ls1358466wea.0.p; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.150.170 with SMTP id z42mr126098wej.10.1282554747708; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.150.170 with SMTP id z42mr126097wej.10.1282554747683; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com (mail-ww0-f49.google.com [74.125.82.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id s70si2131421weq.5.2010.08.23.02.12.26; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.49; Received: by wwb31 with SMTP id 31so3296470wwb.18 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:12:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.6.201 with SMTP id 51mr2263962wen.110.1282554746447; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.93.65 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:12:26 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] lujvo vs. fu'ivla From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364c7cfd1133e0048e7a0c3f --0016364c7cfd1133e0048e7a0c3f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I'm not even sure what that point was? It sounded like he was making an > argument against fu'ivla when lujvo CAN be made. e.g. swift theives. > > I think in general it's a good idea to go with lujvo for things, but one > rule of thumb that I try to go by is "does this word seem to get copied from > language to language? If so, maybe it should be copied to lojban". e.g. > "hypnotism" comes from the french "hypnotique" which comes from the latin > "hypnoticus" so I would most likely expect to see this as a fu'ivla. It > could also arguably be a lujvo, but since people have been copying it around > for millenia from language to language. Why not continue that with > something like {xipnrtismu} or the like instead of making either some > ungodly lujvo to explain what it is in modern day or some completely off the > wall thing based off of what it originally meant? e.g. (respectively) > {menjitrvelmikce} or {cnosipna}. > Actually, I kind of like {cnosipna} for hypnotism. My argument is that someone who's first language is lojban will know instantly that {la sutra zerle'a cpidze} is a velociraptor if that is how the person is taught, and further more will have an instant understanding of why it is named that. The velociraptor wasn't given the Latin name "swift thief" for no reason. The evidence is that the velociraptor was exceedingly quick, hunting in packs, and if you don't think the taking of your prey's life isn't theft.... As such, calling it {la sutra zerle'a cpizde} not only uniquely identifies the species, as there is only one species of bird ancestor that is called the swift-thief, but it also provides the jbopre with an fairly accurate meaning for the creature. calling a Velociraptor a, for example, {verlokirapto}, while being somewhat more recognizable to foreigners learning lojban, conveys no inherent meaning, and only conveys that the word is the creature's name. In the same vein, I would call the predator birds of modern times {le cipna be la zerle'a} collectively, with something more specific to for individual species, such as {le cipni be la zerle'a be sekai lo blabi stedu} for the Bald Eagle. > > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Warrigal > > wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Jonathan Jones >> wrote: >> > Your response indicates to me that you missed my point entirely. >> >> You provided an argument against fu'ivla. I provided a greatly >> unrelated argument in favor of fu'ivla. If you made a point that I >> failed to respond to, that is simply because I had no response. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016364c7cfd1133e0048e7a0c3f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gma= il.com> wrote:
I'm not even sure what that point was? =A0It sounded like he was making= an argument against fu'ivla when lujvo CAN be made. =A0e.g. swift thei= ves.

I think in general it's a good idea to go with = lujvo for things, but one rule of thumb that I try to go by is "does t= his word seem to get copied from language to language? =A0If so, maybe it s= hould be copied to lojban". =A0e.g. "hypnotism" comes from t= he french "hypnotique" which comes from the latin "hypnoticu= s" so I would most likely expect to see this as a fu'ivla. =A0It c= ould also arguably be a lujvo, but since people have been copying it around= for millenia from language to language. =A0Why not continue that with some= thing like {xipnrtismu} or the like instead of making either some ungodly l= ujvo to explain what it is in modern day or some completely off the wall th= ing based off of what it originally meant? =A0e.g. (respectively) {menjitrv= elmikce} or {cnosipna}.

=A0Actually, I kind of like {cnosipna} for hypnotism.=

My argument is that someone who's first language is lojban will= know instantly that {la sutra zerle'a cpidze} is a velociraptor if tha= t is how the person is taught, and further more will have an instant unders= tanding of why it is named that. The velociraptor wasn't given the Lati= n name "swift thief" for no reason. The evidence is that the velo= ciraptor was exceedingly quick, hunting in packs, and if you don't thin= k the taking of your prey's life isn't theft....

As such, calling it {la sutra zerle'a cpizde} not only uniquely ide= ntifies the species, as there is only one species of bird ancestor that is = called the swift-thief, but it also provides the jbopre with an fairly accu= rate meaning for the creature. calling a Velociraptor a, for example, {verl= okirapto}, while being somewhat more recognizable to foreigners learning lo= jban, conveys no inherent meaning, and only conveys that the word is the cr= eature's name.

In the same vein, I would call the predator birds of modern times {le c= ipna be la zerle'a} collectively, with something more specific to for i= ndividual species, such as {le cipni be la zerle'a be sekai lo blabi st= edu} for the Bald Eagle.
<= /div>

On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:3= 5 PM, Warrigal <ihope127+w@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your response indicates to me that you missed my point entirely.

You provided an argument against fu'ivla. I provided a greatly unrelated argument in favor of fu'ivla. If you made a point that I
failed to respond to, that is simply because I had no response.

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.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
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