From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCG-cjjBBoEiB1ZdA@googlegroups.com Mon Aug 23 02:17:16 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OnT9R-0005XE-Pm; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:17:16 -0700 Received: by wyb42 with SMTP id 42sf1643332wyb.16 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:17:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=o7DUMgxBah9TVxUeH582Kg6T8SZWJ8VjWFpivSeTccE=; b=534Raugl1h5q9Tfoo/ygPgd3Lgi6pRzmJyCXQ2LhPN/GaPvrlm8IFrl+Wn3Kv0GMWI eivsBT59qwzSbacxjp4SEPuP6m0Km0sgi1+78S3g+uJHOkMiPNjmuGrF7MPn93RilOYZ BBNI2zOslAmq3/HcIvbBVcg4joDFofPt50fRo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=a3Rloy/EAIW46uYXbcz7cfERRQsHNQrv82kP520RIpyPsJVODTYk7+k3gv/Xm1q3Un Tyvt6I9kktE56Ok3fcZQaKKF9DH4J8vGYD8b9608nW+6ZXi+bJUwcVk1fIRKQGN/Ld1D lSLZoRPm8Knn+pspQxn4ISrNehN7dFwI+xvGE= Received: by 10.216.145.135 with SMTP id p7mr966588wej.11.1282555014942; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:16:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.198.162 with SMTP id v34ls1933625wen.3.p; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.236.156 with SMTP id w28mr169774weq.0.1282555013480; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.236.156 with SMTP id w28mr169773weq.0.1282555013436; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f179.google.com (mail-wy0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id k12si2133029weq.3.2010.08.23.02.16.52; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.179; Received: by wyb42 with SMTP id 42so6443822wyb.38 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:16:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.72.72 with SMTP id s50mr2557478wed.109.1282555012221; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.93.65 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:16:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:16:52 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: lujvo vs. fu'ivla From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502c81be88e02048e7a1b37 --00504502c81be88e02048e7a1b37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 3:12 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> I'm not even sure what that point was? It sounded like he was making an >> argument against fu'ivla when lujvo CAN be made. e.g. swift theives. >> >> I think in general it's a good idea to go with lujvo for things, but one >> rule of thumb that I try to go by is "does this word seem to get copied from >> language to language? If so, maybe it should be copied to lojban". e.g. >> "hypnotism" comes from the french "hypnotique" which comes from the latin >> "hypnoticus" so I would most likely expect to see this as a fu'ivla. It >> could also arguably be a lujvo, but since people have been copying it around >> for millenia from language to language. Why not continue that with >> something like {xipnrtismu} or the like instead of making either some >> ungodly lujvo to explain what it is in modern day or some completely off the >> wall thing based off of what it originally meant? e.g. (respectively) >> {menjitrvelmikce} or {cnosipna}. >> > > Actually, I kind of like {cnosipna} for hypnotism. > > My argument is that someone who's first language is lojban will know > instantly that {la sutra zerle'a cpidze} is a velociraptor if that is how > the person is taught, and further more will have an instant understanding of > why it is named that. The velociraptor wasn't given the Latin name "swift > thief" for no reason. The evidence is that the velociraptor was exceedingly > quick, hunting in packs, and if you don't think the taking of your prey's > life isn't theft.... > > As such, calling it {la sutra zerle'a cpizde} not only uniquely identifies > the species, as there is only one species of bird ancestor that is called > the swift-thief, but it also provides the jbopre with an fairly accurate > meaning for the creature. calling a Velociraptor a, for example, > {verlokirapto}, while being somewhat more recognizable to foreigners > learning lojban, conveys no inherent meaning, and only conveys that the word > is the creature's name. > > In the same vein, I would call the predator birds of modern times {le cipna > be la zerle'a} collectively, with something more specific to for individual > species, such as {le cipni be la zerle'a be sekai lo blabi stedu} for the > Bald Eagle. > I am certain that the above can be made less wordy, and I would hope it is understood that in conversations about raptors, {lo blabi stedu} would be enough to uniquely identify the Bald Eagle. > >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Warrigal >> > wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Jonathan Jones >>> wrote: >>> > Your response indicates to me that you missed my point entirely. >>> >>> You provided an argument against fu'ivla. I provided a greatly >>> unrelated argument in favor of fu'ivla. If you made a point that I >>> failed to respond to, that is simply because I had no response. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00504502c81be88e02048e7a1b37 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 3:12 AM, Jonatha= n Jones <eyeonus@= gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not even sure what that point was? =A0It sounded like he was making= an argument against fu'ivla when lujvo CAN be made. =A0e.g. swift thei= ves.

I think in general it's a good idea to go with = lujvo for things, but one rule of thumb that I try to go by is "does t= his word seem to get copied from language to language? =A0If so, maybe it s= hould be copied to lojban". =A0e.g. "hypnotism" comes from t= he french "hypnotique" which comes from the latin "hypnoticu= s" so I would most likely expect to see this as a fu'ivla. =A0It c= ould also arguably be a lujvo, but since people have been copying it around= for millenia from language to language. =A0Why not continue that with some= thing like {xipnrtismu} or the like instead of making either some ungodly l= ujvo to explain what it is in modern day or some completely off the wall th= ing based off of what it originally meant? =A0e.g. (respectively) {menjitrv= elmikce} or {cnosipna}.

=A0Actually, I kind of like {cnosipna} for hypnotism.=

My argument is that someone who's first language is lojban will= know instantly that {la sutra zerle'a cpidze} is a velociraptor if tha= t is how the person is taught, and further more will have an instant unders= tanding of why it is named that. The velociraptor wasn't given the Lati= n name "swift thief" for no reason. The evidence is that the velo= ciraptor was exceedingly quick, hunting in packs, and if you don't thin= k the taking of your prey's life isn't theft....

As such, calling it {la sutra zerle'a cpizde} not only uniquely ide= ntifies the species, as there is only one species of bird ancestor that is = called the swift-thief, but it also provides the jbopre with an fairly accu= rate meaning for the creature. calling a Velociraptor a, for example, {verl= okirapto}, while being somewhat more recognizable to foreigners learning lo= jban, conveys no inherent meaning, and only conveys that the word is the cr= eature's name.

In the same vein, I would call the predator birds of modern times {le c= ipna be la zerle'a} collectively, with something more specific to for i= ndividual species, such as {le cipni be la zerle'a be sekai lo blabi st= edu} for the Bald Eagle.

I am certain that the above can be made l= ess wordy, and I would hope it is understood that in conversations about ra= ptors, {lo blabi stedu} would be enough to uniquely identify the Bald Eagle= .
<= /div>

On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:3= 5 PM, Warrigal <ihope127+w@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your response indicates to me that you missed my point entirely.

You provided an argument against fu'ivla. I provided a greatly unrelated argument in favor of fu'ivla. If you made a point that I
failed to respond to, that is simply because I had no response.

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=



--
mu'o mi'e .aion= ys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

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