From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhD8gsnjBBoEKBdfFA@googlegroups.com Mon Aug 23 02:38:38 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OnTTw-0005gR-CA; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:38:37 -0700 Received: by wwi18 with SMTP id 18sf182479wwi.16 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:38:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=oWfA00VQ1+IGtT/cXlMcHvcVyETZiDrwXJPuH3nf8DQ=; b=giXqvFNLiyHl7Xcwzn1urwsg8nzclEnneTU2R2agGtjxdBs68j8KJk6BQxNCOGkg1d ILmn3XYdSI1OtPjyGaorNcVSxMisD/+E/m6tLxrUiiQwEcHQegZFNDP0hdJfqQPJeHZA ED7rU/waCEZyWnu16kyGxqLznXoDrU/30xFpI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=CD77yvJYfeBthWW5EYVdGL9MkkmaEh15PSl+cRY+P/+DalojFCxJWeeEWVhBJSU04E 1tRpKQzKtlAcyUcA8lyj+9iD5Ke2NUSo6UNZ9vlUX7eWqbvpauNEUOpza9ywZE1MPxj0 Pj8E/BDX3ewoB63O+z4I+t1W9UxHyfKnGEVCg= Received: by 10.216.144.25 with SMTP id m25mr970306wej.24.1282556284516; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:38:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.237.134 with SMTP id y6ls1945335weq.2.p; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.26.74 with SMTP id b52mr127146wea.14.1282556283473; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.26.74 with SMTP id b52mr127145wea.14.1282556283448; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f54.google.com (mail-ww0-f54.google.com [74.125.82.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o46si2138662weq.10.2010.08.23.02.38.02; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.54; Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34so771739wwb.35 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:38:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.68.149 with SMTP id v21mr4260417wbi.138.1282556282192; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.93.65 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:38:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:38:02 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: lujvo vs. fu'ivla From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f87d789ac2b8048e7a6751 --001485f87d789ac2b8048e7a6751 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 3:12 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: >> >>> I'm not even sure what that point was? It sounded like he was making an >>> argument against fu'ivla when lujvo CAN be made. e.g. swift theives. >>> >>> I think in general it's a good idea to go with lujvo for things, but one >>> rule of thumb that I try to go by is "does this word seem to get copied from >>> language to language? If so, maybe it should be copied to lojban". e.g. >>> "hypnotism" comes from the french "hypnotique" which comes from the latin >>> "hypnoticus" so I would most likely expect to see this as a fu'ivla. It >>> could also arguably be a lujvo, but since people have been copying it around >>> for millenia from language to language. Why not continue that with >>> something like {xipnrtismu} or the like instead of making either some >>> ungodly lujvo to explain what it is in modern day or some completely off the >>> wall thing based off of what it originally meant? e.g. (respectively) >>> {menjitrvelmikce} or {cnosipna}. >>> >> >> Actually, I kind of like {cnosipna} for hypnotism. >> >> My argument is that someone who's first language is lojban will know >> instantly that {la sutra zerle'a cpidze} is a velociraptor if that is how >> the person is taught, and further more will have an instant understanding of >> why it is named that. The velociraptor wasn't given the Latin name "swift >> thief" for no reason. The evidence is that the velociraptor was exceedingly >> quick, hunting in packs, and if you don't think the taking of your prey's >> life isn't theft.... >> >> As such, calling it {la sutra zerle'a cpizde} not only uniquely identifies >> the species, as there is only one species of bird ancestor that is called >> the swift-thief, but it also provides the jbopre with an fairly accurate >> meaning for the creature. calling a Velociraptor a, for example, >> {verlokirapto}, while being somewhat more recognizable to foreigners >> learning lojban, conveys no inherent meaning, and only conveys that the word >> is the creature's name. >> >> In the same vein, I would call the predator birds of modern times {le >> cipna be la zerle'a} collectively, with something more specific to for >> individual species, such as {le cipni be la zerle'a be sekai lo blabi stedu} >> for the Bald Eagle. >> > > I am certain that the above can be made less wordy, and I would hope it is > understood that in conversations about raptors, {lo blabi stedu} would be > enough to uniquely identify the Bald Eagle. > As another example, the New Guinea Eagle, *Harpyopsis novaeguinea,* where the Latin name means, basically, "Harpy of New Guinea", {le cipni be la zerle'a be me'e la.nuginis.}. I didn't bother with the harpy bit, and I'm not certain what a fu'ivla would be for that, but there is only one raptor bird with the name "New Guinea", and as such, {la.nuginis.} would be enough to uniquely identify that bird in a discussion about raptors. My view is that fu'ivla should only be used when there is no other way, specifically because tanru and lujvo have meaning associated with them, whereas fu'ivla are basically just names with different rules. > >>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Warrigal >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Jonathan Jones >>>> wrote: >>>> > Your response indicates to me that you missed my point entirely. >>>> >>>> You provided an argument against fu'ivla. I provided a greatly >>>> unrelated argument in favor of fu'ivla. If you made a point that I >>>> failed to respond to, that is simply because I had no response. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu >> >> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001485f87d789ac2b8048e7a6751 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Jonathan Jones = <eyeonus@gmail.co= m> wrote:


On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 a= t 3:12 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not even sure what that point was? =A0It sounded like he was making= an argument against fu'ivla when lujvo CAN be made. =A0e.g. swift thei= ves.

I think in general it's a good idea to go with = lujvo for things, but one rule of thumb that I try to go by is "does t= his word seem to get copied from language to language? =A0If so, maybe it s= hould be copied to lojban". =A0e.g. "hypnotism" comes from t= he french "hypnotique" which comes from the latin "hypnoticu= s" so I would most likely expect to see this as a fu'ivla. =A0It c= ould also arguably be a lujvo, but since people have been copying it around= for millenia from language to language. =A0Why not continue that with some= thing like {xipnrtismu} or the like instead of making either some ungodly l= ujvo to explain what it is in modern day or some completely off the wall th= ing based off of what it originally meant? =A0e.g. (respectively) {menjitrv= elmikce} or {cnosipna}.

=A0Actually, I kind of like {cnosipna} for hypnotism.=

My argument is that someone who's first language is lojban will= know instantly that {la sutra zerle'a cpidze} is a velociraptor if tha= t is how the person is taught, and further more will have an instant unders= tanding of why it is named that. The velociraptor wasn't given the Lati= n name "swift thief" for no reason. The evidence is that the velo= ciraptor was exceedingly quick, hunting in packs, and if you don't thin= k the taking of your prey's life isn't theft....

As such, calling it {la sutra zerle'a cpizde} not only uniquely ide= ntifies the species, as there is only one species of bird ancestor that is = called the swift-thief, but it also provides the jbopre with an fairly accu= rate meaning for the creature. calling a Velociraptor a, for example, {verl= okirapto}, while being somewhat more recognizable to foreigners learning lo= jban, conveys no inherent meaning, and only conveys that the word is the cr= eature's name.

In the same vein, I would call the predator birds of modern times {le c= ipna be la zerle'a} collectively, with something more specific to for i= ndividual species, such as {le cipni be la zerle'a be sekai lo blabi st= edu} for the Bald Eagle.

I am certain that the above can be = made less wordy, and I would hope it is understood that in conversations ab= out raptors, {lo blabi stedu} would be enough to uniquely identify the Bald= Eagle.
=A0
As another example, the New Gui= nea Eagle, Harpyopsis novaeguinea, where the Latin=20 name means, basically, "Harpy of New Guinea", {le cipni be la zer= le'a be me'e la.nuginis.}. I didn't bother with the harpy bit, and I'm= not certain what a fu'ivla would be for that,=20 but there is only one raptor bird with the name "New Guinea", and= as such, {la.nuginis.} would be enough to uniquely identify that bird in a= discussion about raptors.

My view is that fu'ivla should only b= e used when there is no other way, specifically because tanru and lujvo hav= e meaning associated with them, whereas fu'ivla are basically just name= s with different rules.
<= /div>

On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:3= 5 PM, Warrigal <ihope127+w@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your response indicates to me that you missed my point entirely.

You provided an argument against fu'ivla. I provided a greatly unrelated argument in favor of fu'ivla. If you made a point that I
failed to respond to, that is simply because I had no response.

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko kl= ama le bende pe denpa bu




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

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