From lojban+bncCPrlgoD04bGDVBDAoebiBBoENm539A@googlegroups.com Wed Aug 04 09:09:57 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OggXQ-0003c5-0X; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:09:57 -0700 Received: by fxm18 with SMTP id 18sf1258809fxm.16 for ; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:09:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=EMPdY3NhJfy/QmDwSHhGmrMc7/cIiJUrRnu7iUtlWyQ=; b=BpmOZN86Yx+5R9X7SAClgnbGTGsfO803QWK8IG0Bk2h2gRrwWRJ13u0Ps2kHIdYKjr IMZ+Fvi0zwaNPeTF3VK7r8o+i0Fp4sThOMHLDFN7d10y8+/5PisMAazdLsgJvYPIlHBg iGzxBzNiExXlNbawuFIVrMBSzbpG8DuFFiQm8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ZWJF4Gsh9TvYKaD8W5q45/LGCgCLqkHEKq2t1LmUbOcfVJyfVZnJ54SAZaqbJjyNNG UFBMzANTarpWkzElei5dP5JjfuAr7yDKwoV7VYsLhrpLifSxqQuq2vMgTTPF/zrtzPy5 H2eo3kbjVWEZ+/HEbE8oD3FdxLgVI+sHopQzM= Received: by 10.223.16.151 with SMTP id o23mr155720faa.3.1280938176516; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:09:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.27.83 with SMTP id h19ls361326fac.0.p; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.107.1 with SMTP id z1mr385164fao.9.1280938175457; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.107.1 with SMTP id z1mr385163fao.9.1280938175430; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f46.google.com (mail-bw0-f46.google.com [209.85.214.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y2si2295170fau.6.2010.08.04.09.09.34; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of philip.newton@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.46; Received: by bwz1 with SMTP id 1so2478670bwz.19 for ; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.162.207 with SMTP id w15mr6388006bkx.63.1280938174233; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:09:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.24.19 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Aug 2010 09:09:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5c502663-6c46-47d8-9808-cd093da084b7@g19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com> From: Philip Newton Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:09:14 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Translation Help To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: philip.newton@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of philip.newton@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=philip.newton@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 18:03, Warrigal wrote: > On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:26 AM, ftmassana wrote: >> Hello, >> I'm writing a book in which appear a phrase in lojban, and need help >> for translation. If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated. >> >> The phrase is: >> >> "Eternity is not measured by time. Time does not dream with moments. >> The moments are written with eternity." > > Honestly, it's difficult to tell what this means. For example, does > "the moments are written with eternity" mean "eternity is the tool > used to write the moments", "the moments are written in the same place > as eternity", "the moments are written such that they will last an > eternity", or something else? Translation requires the original > material to be clear and precise. Similarly, does "Time does not dream with moments" mean "Time does not dream together with moments" (e.g. you can't find a bedroom where 'time' and 'moments' are lying next to one another, sleeping), "Time does not dream using moments" (e.g. one cannot use 'moments' to measure the way that time dreams), or something else? As in many(?) natural languages, "with" is ambiguous between comitative and instrumental. And does "Eternity is not measured by time" mean "The person who measures eternity is not the person 'time'", "The person 'time' measures many things, but 'eternity' is not one of them", "Eternity is measured, but the measuring unit is not time", "Many things are being measured by [the unit] time, but eternity is not one of them", or something else? Negation is even more tricky semantically (as the developers of Lojban found when they tried to codify it, IIRC). mu'o mi'e .filip. -- Philip Newton -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.