From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDG3fDiBBoEyJOF_w@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 06 08:48:45 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OhP9x-0001Jp-PC; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:48:44 -0700 Received: by qwj8 with SMTP id 8sf1684789qwj.16 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:48:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=eE9CxDNv5jHrGhZDShnf0z17PKVBrHjwVxkGpZJ/jSI=; b=Y2xr/29p2j1YcckHY52skO2TV3Vxr9YSOtdzByv2EMppvaGeLfa8vsvHfiaDAYScAM rwt8lfThkTnUHouqtE7/KJhms5l8c5pXgVJCEbg0iVK91tzJMlS1oEX641LGA//ywmHZ 4P3/Omw4n2Z0fURS9AxYe88jzt1Eaej9b8iZo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=y5oL9HG6E7bap8cbt1o2D1K58kZ6kZGNQN3lYgjqscXOzkvzhgIqxKdQcMu4kgdMuJ FVukacW4QJ9Ud+fKMDJ5StJZncAx3L4q3pvAWXv3CB5CBSorFNWfT/NjL1jM+1rGh/28 55Yl3MMWTTgtZMsVF6PBS2DjEM1E9Ox+ntFek= Received: by 10.229.2.167 with SMTP id 39mr850624qcj.24.1281109702107; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:48:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.173.155 with SMTP id p27ls1516069qcz.3.p; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.231.17 with SMTP id jo17mr314678qcb.0.1281109700162; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.231.17 with SMTP id jo17mr314677qcb.0.1281109700084; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f179.google.com (mail-qy0-f179.google.com [209.85.216.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 2si868781qci.10.2010.08.06.08.48.19; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.179; Received: by qyk8 with SMTP id 8so6181640qyk.10 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:48:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.35.138 with SMTP id p10mr4727905qcd.167.1281109698695; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.251.143 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 08:48:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:48:18 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Illogical English Sign From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> =A0At the hospital where I work, there is a sign in the bathroom which >> reads, in part, "...Note: Those identified not washing your hands >> after bathroom use may be approached by your coworkers. =A0You can avoid >> this embarrassment!" This makes the logical part of my brain laugh >> every time I read it. =A0Translating that into lojban we get ".i ju'i .i >> lo na'e lumci be lo xance be do be'o bei ba'o lo nu pilno le lumku'a >> cu ba jai se tolzau la'acu'i lo kansa be do bei lo nu gunka =A0 .i do >> kakne lo nu rivbi le za'i se burnygau" =A0It seems to me there are >> several billion people who don't wash MY hands after using the >> bathroom (their using, or my using? =A0It's not clear). =A0I don't reall= y >> care if my coworkers approach them, nor am I really sure if my >> coworkers would. =A0And how would that embarrass me? > > Is the sign really illogical, or just (potentially) ambiguous? > > You can reduce the ambiguity considerably by replacing "those of you" > for "those". Can't "those" be understood that way?? > > How would you interpret "those with something in your hands"? Does > "your hands" restrict "those" to "those of you" in this case? > > So I see how you can get a funny reading, but I don't really find the > wording as used illogical. (I do find it unbearably bigbrotherish > though. Wouldn't a "please wash your hands after ... " or "remember to > wash your hands after ..." suffice?) > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > I considered it to be more pronomial mismatch than ambiguity. I'd've preferred "Those identified not washing their hands after bathroom use may be approached by their coworkers", personally. (And similarly with your example sentence. I consider it just plain wrong) But your solution works just as well, I suppose. You might consider it Big Brotherish, but this was an excerpt from the bottom of this three paragraph sign. The first was a reminder from the Center of Disease Control about the importance of hand washing, and the second an appeal to protect yourself, your family, your coworkers and patients from disease. Remember, this is a hospital, and hand washing is the number one way of avoiding spreading infections.. a very important consideration in a place where a great many people are medically fragile and there are many resistant bacteria and viruses around in the air, on surfaces, etc. Social ostracism is an important mechanism of compliance. They even have monthly reports of which departments have done the best job washing up after using the restroom (how they know, I can only guess. Bathroom Stasi, I guess) --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.