From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCzkvHiBBoE3BWjUw@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 06 10:41:39 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OhQv4-0007wb-2d; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:41:39 -0700 Received: by qyk27 with SMTP id 27sf1795505qyk.16 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:41:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=i0cK7pjGC6rCwzMSbcG3ylpY+UeA2A2g+QdNMT+1rd4=; b=wC7moX6EcrwD9+IxckQ9j07exUCICRuIBwBi29A/rS/d/AWxPK51oBxhUBMa6cAVTa M0iDHN4uWV0awF7ab6u2wUOl1WLLTmDu+2ZWeEzcc4E4EcmT8Dl06mY2A6yZZUuCrg6+ BjoEo68aUIoh9GKp7VRDFoSE/BY4nDQZU1pxM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=w8D6j0L5Dbx7w1sg7WXI7pG++lKZNTTi6rdANoqTM75Chu9WQpYF16jZ0IlMvksSv2 DJbpyhZYsG8ZztLf+j4PLaXh00M4QDiZKpDQGga2dNR3zYd9rohc4UxzCyTATL+kQyys c+kcTm+4pIiFNGBeyiuTD5yPQ7UDwGubGcM5M= Received: by 10.229.107.4 with SMTP id z4mr749073qco.17.1281116467174; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:41:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.117.201 with SMTP id s9ls1563616qcq.2.p; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.247.130 with SMTP id mc2mr445506qcb.6.1281116466385; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.247.130 with SMTP id mc2mr445505qcb.6.1281116466295; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f50.google.com (mail-vw0-f50.google.com [209.85.212.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x2si117912qcq.3.2010.08.06.10.41.05; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.50; Received: by mail-vw0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 5so5675377vws.9 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:41:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.88.22 with SMTP id y22mr8500453vcl.152.1281116464382; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.126.220 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 10:41:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 13:41:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Illogical English Sign From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e647185ec68516048d2b2b3e --0016e647185ec68516048d2b2b3e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Way to give the trick away xorxes. Now lindar's department will always win because he'll spend hours a day dispensing soap down the drain. ta'onai I heard one of these ambiguous tidbits in a song the other day. From a son= g by shiny toy guns there's a bit of lyrics that goes: "I can't forget what you've forgotten". Is the artist saying {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i da poi do tolmo'i ke'a} or {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo fatc= i be fa lo nu do tolmo'i}? 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > > > > I considered it to be more pronomial mismatch than ambiguity. > > I'd've preferred "Those identified not washing their hands > > after bathroom use may be approached by their coworkers", personally. > > (And similarly with your example sentence. I consider it just plain > > wrong) But your solution works just as well, I suppose. > > I think Spanish is more accepting of matching any noun with first and > second person pronouns (especially plural) than English is. Perhaps > the writers of the sign chose the second person to implicate the > reader more. > > > You might consider it Big Brotherish, but this was an excerpt from > > the bottom of this three paragraph sign. The first was a reminder > > from the Center of Disease Control about the importance of hand > > washing, and the second an appeal to protect yourself, your family, > > your coworkers and patients from disease. Remember, this is a > > hospital, and hand washing is the number one way of avoiding spreading > > infections.. a very important consideration in a place where a great > > many people are medically fragile and there are many resistant > > bacteria and viruses around in the air, on surfaces, etc. > > Yes, I realized that. > > > Social > > ostracism is an important mechanism of compliance. > > Here's another cultural tidbit for Lindar. I suspect in my culture > being the coworker doing the approaching in this case would be more > embarrasing than being the one approached. But I don't have any > experience with work in a hospital. Do coworkers actually approach one > other with this stuff? And relying too much on this for compliance may > encourage the attitude of "if I'm alone in the bathroom I don't really > need to wash". > > > They even have > > monthly reports of which departments have done the best job washing up > > after using the restroom (how they know, I can only guess. Bathroom > > Stasi, I guess) > > Maybe they measure the amount of soap used or something. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e647185ec68516048d2b2b3e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Way to give the trick away xorxes. =A0Now lindar's department will alwa= ys win because he'll spend hours a day dispensing soap down the drain.<= div>
ta'onai

I heard one of thes= e ambiguous tidbits in a song the other day. =A0From a song by shiny toy gu= ns there's a bit of lyrics that goes:=A0
"I can't forget what you've forgotten". =A0Is the ar= tist saying {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i da poi do tolmo'i ke'a} = or {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo fatci be fa lo nu do tolmo'i}?

2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas = <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com> = wrote:
>
> =A0I considered it to be more pronomial mismatch than ambiguity.
> I'd've preferred "Those identified not washing their hand= s
> =A0after bathroom use may be approached by their coworkers", pers= onally.
> (And similarly with your example sentence. I consider it just plain > wrong) =A0But your solution works just as well, I suppose.

I think Spanish is more accepting of matching any noun with first and=
second person pronouns (especially plural) than English is. Perhaps
the writers of the sign chose the second person to implicate the
reader more.

> =A0 =A0You might consider it Big Brotherish, but this was an excerpt f= rom
> the bottom of this three paragraph sign. =A0The first was a reminder > from the Center of Disease Control about the importance of hand
> washing, and the second an appeal to protect yourself, your family, > your coworkers and patients from disease. =A0Remember, this is a
> hospital, and hand washing is the number one way of avoiding spreading=
> infections.. a very important consideration in a place where a great > many people are medically fragile and there are many resistant
> bacteria and viruses around in the air, on surfaces, etc.

Yes, I realized that.

>=A0Social
> ostracism is an important mechanism of compliance.

Here's another cultural tidbit for Lindar. I suspect in my cultur= e
being the coworker doing the approaching in this case would be more
embarrasing than being the one approached. But I don't have any
experience with work in a hospital. Do coworkers actually approach one
other with this stuff? And relying too much on this for compliance may
encourage the attitude of "if I'm alone in the bathroom I don'= t really
need to wash".

>=A0They even have
> monthly reports of which departments have done the best job washing up=
> after using the restroom (how they know, I can only guess. =A0Bathroom=
> Stasi, I guess)

Maybe they measure the amount of soap used or something.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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