From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhC0ofHiBBoEeOThNw@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 06 11:13:28 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OhRQ3-0002Bb-K2; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:13:28 -0700 Received: by qyk27 with SMTP id 27sf1806525qyk.16 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:13:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EofDsHk8E6AWEn5T/KWPfK/xZw4iVlXOSoTskCSLLps=; b=xiG896ssSahm5/6iDf7R68gqMOjdqsIZc4htXMDsMHkQA+Nr4cgCRL1GOxIf7iG8Do Be/XoDzOAKfe4MFnL7ht1V5DBiD2MoF4bTfqcSAqbzYT6iBiUCVLc/y74qaCaNdqt9bd Cbz9wzBKJa606jF0OI76wCOklSSjaxy/Jn3HU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=o2YaXxKn6MJvbfat8ubc1XHlHe0sl5Sa67fEJrmWnSPNNnoGYj4+86tkch/B+0WZp3 oCJxY4QVJso+FAAtC9pPJXKrruBOzqpGrwMuAlLuymAj32iuB6n/5ZXZb6kKS996uMg8 Ts3gJUgZZPlQKe3OS2bFWbogNAdX3AgcGxpDI= Received: by 10.229.7.202 with SMTP id e10mr757341qce.5.1281118388523; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:13:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.207.1 with SMTP id fw1ls1577224qcb.1.p; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.222.19 with SMTP id ie19mr449452qcb.29.1281118387735; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.222.19 with SMTP id ie19mr449451qcb.29.1281118387702; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f45.google.com (mail-qw0-f45.google.com [209.85.216.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id t18si948420qcb.1.2010.08.06.11.13.06; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.45; Received: by mail-qw0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 4so40829qwi.32 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:13:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.222.7 with SMTP id ie7mr5040518qcb.27.1281118386549; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.30.143 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:13:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 14:13:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Illogical English Sign From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen wrot= e: >>> >>> "I can't forget what you've forgotten". =A0Is the artist saying {mi na = kakne >>> lo nu tolmo'i da poi do tolmo'i ke'a} or {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo = fatci >>> be fa lo nu do tolmo'i}? >>> >> =A0It HAS to be the first one, in English.. the second is "I can't >> forget THAT you've forgotten." > > There are three cases: > > (1) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo se tolmo'i be do > =A0 =A0 "I can't forget what you've forgotten." > > (2) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau > =A0 =A0 "I can't forget what you've forgotten." > > (3) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i > =A0 =A0 "I can't forget that you've forgotten." > > The English is ambiguous between (1) and (2), but Luke wrote (3) in > Lojban instead of (2), which goes with "that", not with "what". > Ah, yes.. I understand now... You are right.. the English is ambiguous there. I remember fact X, a fact which you have forgotten. Or I remember that fact X IS the fact that you have forgotten, whether or not I actually remember X itself. --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.