From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCmqfHiBBoEQbdPmA@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 06 11:30:25 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OhRgL-0001Sy-Jj; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:30:25 -0700 Received: by vws11 with SMTP id 11sf4279507vws.16 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:30:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ismarcx2ha+aYKi0gRRsVgMb4DXFhnTYjGKefwvQRMQ=; b=waDDG/JrujylajIivNsioVrTWRTOP2WSkDDE6mSWTQ+xZhsCo9Bar7o30SwK43JhVJ TJJ8dx4/q/YaKomE/giRL/NIn0+g1XUHdHL6Jm9jMIYdOjbPv5rnX3pEGzKWf0WG0gS6 2YkBAHMgDyftBHf9RcrOGextWfj6gAHnS5X6U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ObltSbAA7ctiK3XemJBT9IQKJd+feo8BuL5znFlycM9ijD2/TIeZsoNaNBLbS3T+g+ X19cmXyvtoA+nolJCsdRdtdPUIby/b87/81Toy2FYpqeykNIrOV87Ci0Go3QSUh6nLDm GrnTjIBy7mLkQkgpv+uCxDTK+k/7nKVbEPzws= Received: by 10.229.127.18 with SMTP id e18mr72290qcs.16.1281119398900; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:29:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.207.84 with SMTP id fx20ls1582194qcb.0.p; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.238.201 with SMTP id kt9mr447459qcb.24.1281119398394; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.238.201 with SMTP id kt9mr447458qcb.24.1281119398344; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f48.google.com (mail-vw0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id t18si957191qcb.1.2010.08.06.11.29.57; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.48; Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2so6176232vws.7 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:29:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.166.71 with SMTP id l7mr8639674vcy.9.1281119397025; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.126.220 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:29:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 14:29:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Illogical English Sign From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163630ffef931c76048d2bdaa0 --00163630ffef931c76048d2bdaa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm still not quite grasping the difference. In {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau} the thing that I can't forget is {lo du'u} right? In {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo fatci be fa lo du'u do tolmo'i} the thing that I can't forget is again, the fact that you forgot. The thing that I forgot seems to be the same thing here, it's the fact that you've forgotten (something). Maybe I'm misunderstanding what {makau} does. Or I'm misunderstanding just what {lo du'u} is and how it's different from {lo fatci be fa...} 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : > > hmmm, what's the difference between 2 and 3? I was trying to say "I am > not > > able to do the event of forgetting the fact that you've forgotten > > (something, who knows what)". > > That would be (3), but "I can't forget what you've forgotten" can't mean > that. > > If what you've forgotten is that Beijing is the capital of China, then > (1) says I can't forget that Beijing is the capital of China, and (2) > says that I can't forget that you've forgotten that Beijing is the > capital of China. > > Both are "I can't forget what you've forgotten". > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Michael Turniansky > >> wrote: > >> > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten". Is the artist saying {mi n= a > >> >> kakne > >> >> lo nu tolmo'i da poi do tolmo'i ke'a} or {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i > lo > >> >> fatci > >> >> be fa lo nu do tolmo'i}? > >> >> > >> > It HAS to be the first one, in English.. the second is "I can't > >> > forget THAT you've forgotten." > >> > >> There are three cases: > >> > >> (1) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo se tolmo'i be do > >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten." > >> > >> (2) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau > >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten." > >> > >> (3) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i > >> "I can't forget that you've forgotten." > >> > >> The English is ambiguous between (1) and (2), but Luke wrote (3) in > >> Lojban instead of (2), which goes with "that", not with "what". > >> > >> mu'o mi'e xorxes > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00163630ffef931c76048d2bdaa0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm still not quite grasping the difference.

In {mi = na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau}=A0the thing th= at I can't forget is {lo du'u} right?

In {= mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo fatci be fa lo du'u do tolmo'i} th= e thing that I can't forget is again, the fact that you forgot. =A0The = thing that I forgot seems to be the same thing here, it's the fact that= you've forgotten (something).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what {makau} does. =A0Or= I'm misunderstanding just what {lo du'u} is and how it's diffe= rent from {lo fatci be fa...}

2010= /8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:= 13 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen= @gmail.com> wrote:
> hmmm, what's the difference between 2 and 3? =A0I was trying to sa= y "I am not
> able to do the event of forgetting the fact that you've forgotten<= br> > (something, who knows what)".

That would be (3), but "I can't forget what you've forgo= tten" can't mean that.

If what you've forgotten is that Beijing is the capital of China, then<= br> (1) says I can't forget that Beijing is the capital of China, and (2) says that I can't forget that you've forgotten that Beijing is the<= br> capital of China.

Both are "I can't forget what you've forgotten".

mu'o mi'e xorxes


> 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Michael Turniansky
>> <mturniansky@gmail.com= > wrote:
>> > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten".= =A0Is the artist saying {mi na
>> >> kakne
>> >> lo nu tolmo'i da poi do tolmo'i ke'a} or {mi = na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo
>> >> fatci
>> >> be fa lo nu do tolmo'i}?
>> >>
>> > =A0It HAS to be the first one, in English.. the second is &qu= ot;I can't
>> > forget THAT you've forgotten."
>>
>> There are three cases:
>>
>> (1) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo se tolmo'i be do
>> =A0 =A0 "I can't forget what you've forgotten."<= br> >>
>> (2) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau=
>> =A0 =A0 "I can't forget what you've forgotten."<= br> >>
>> (3) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i
>> =A0 =A0 "I can't forget that you've forgotten."<= br> >>
>> The English is ambiguous between (1) and (2), but Luke wrote (3) i= n
>> Lojban instead of (2), which goes with "that", not with = "what".
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

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