From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDErfHiBBoE2Ni5eQ@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 06 11:39:32 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OhRp5-00038R-R3; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:39:32 -0700 Received: by wwi18 with SMTP id 18sf2595904wwi.16 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:39:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pNlwdAtYHpNKJ6kEsDMUpPfRpxnX9KSzvq6/Cd1KFFQ=; b=41gOEt/8GRkq5ASOa3zsNT8U5arsUC6ftG8Bm7h4Je3/0JxQpvojmSD1JYPmF5k6q3 VXFvpHQODZkvUWVE9sbjPJeA6256NufZ4H/tPNDiTXEposOWFSA2ahbXrkDYBwBG0Sqo sWb7AUv/NS2uLuIekOUpOL9lx0+pwGrue/1DY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mfNg6uklh+1FzAoO73vqOVotUndqIWdUkYr03wK1dRwOnB/Zyr5iF9LK2Df2CpOtyH kWv0vMYjhkQpualPv16QNV/GQtMEU7j8c4SGzXK8ss4QFALdMqY5X1rMeuPFW0HZDy9j q49cCLkg1IEYOpO8XAVSF5c/Se61w17KnwKKo= Received: by 10.216.144.194 with SMTP id n44mr2768503wej.19.1281119940481; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:39:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.92.203 with SMTP id s11ls1224008wbm.1.p; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.151.129 with SMTP id c1mr545115wbw.10.1281119939053; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.151.129 with SMTP id c1mr545114wbw.10.1281119939025; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x33si610479wbs.1.2010.08.06.11.38.57; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.41; Received: by wwb17 with SMTP id 17so90066wwb.4 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:38:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.138.2 with SMTP id y2mr10384254wbt.18.1281119936921; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.145.130 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:38:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 15:38:56 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Illogical English Sign From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I'm still not quite grasping the difference. Suppose you've forgotten that Beijing is the capital of China, and I can't forget that you've forgotten something, but I can easily forget what you've forgotten. Then (3) is true but (2) is false. > In {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau}=A0the thing that = I > can't forget is {lo du'u} right? More precisely, "lo du'u do tolmo'i makau" > In {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo fatci be fa lo du'u do tolmo'i} the thin= g > that I can't forget is again, the fact that you forgot. Something, but not necessarily what. >=A0The thing that I > forgot seems to be the same thing here, it's the fact that you've forgott= en > (something). In one case, it's the fact that you've forgotten something (but not necessarily what that something was), in the other case, it is what you've forgotten. > Maybe I'm misunderstanding what {makau} does. =A0Or I'm misunderstanding = just > what {lo du'u} is and how it's different from {lo fatci be fa...} Forget about "lo fatci be fa lo du'u". It's just more wordage for plain "lo du'u". mu'o mi'e xorxes > 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Luke Bergen wrot= e: >> > hmmm, what's the difference between 2 and 3? =A0I was trying to say "I= am >> > not >> > able to do the event of forgetting the fact that you've forgotten >> > (something, who knows what)". >> >> That would be (3), but "I can't forget what you've forgotten" can't mean >> that. >> >> If what you've forgotten is that Beijing is the capital of China, then >> (1) says I can't forget that Beijing is the capital of China, and (2) >> says that I can't forget that you've forgotten that Beijing is the >> capital of China. >> >> Both are "I can't forget what you've forgotten". >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> >> > 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Michael Turniansky >> >> wrote: >> >> > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten". =A0Is the artist saying {m= i na >> >> >> kakne >> >> >> lo nu tolmo'i da poi do tolmo'i ke'a} or {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'= i >> >> >> lo >> >> >> fatci >> >> >> be fa lo nu do tolmo'i}? >> >> >> >> >> > =A0It HAS to be the first one, in English.. the second is "I can't >> >> > forget THAT you've forgotten." >> >> >> >> There are three cases: >> >> >> >> (1) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo se tolmo'i be do >> >> =A0 =A0 "I can't forget what you've forgotten." >> >> >> >> (2) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau >> >> =A0 =A0 "I can't forget what you've forgotten." >> >> >> >> (3) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i >> >> =A0 =A0 "I can't forget that you've forgotten." >> >> >> >> The English is ambiguous between (1) and (2), but Luke wrote (3) in >> >> Lojban instead of (2), which goes with "that", not with "what". >> >> >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "lojban" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.