From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBD7u_HiBBoEehCt5Q@googlegroups.com Fri Aug 06 12:10:10 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OhSIs-0005Xb-1b; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 12:10:10 -0700 Received: by qwj8 with SMTP id 8sf1754517qwj.16 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 12:09:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=vLffDCyc8/Kg6uedyF2NIVQDeHROfLU7xiKHhrc2jvc=; b=oDfY9TIBN5Wmaj5ftmUHyuZJ82jLlA0ZOTP+KXr02Gnvmer8gmJIwSaBhUfWHFUd/q eD+fydGqg3Qrf/38s2g/MjjhzMsv9ZaM60fMRncBiTbXNh13qqMhT2bo2wVpSKtTfIWX uow2HAHlUbL48cOlfWzTaz6NXrxS8fxs992ww= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=mjEtGccs8MgNmRYrfEDeJRp3X3Q6q56EMvLnWh749Gv1X+46LY280Pib+NRDoBZpi6 Q3VyPANPd9pxFLIKMSfgEdrAnldVAjWoxwfsRTLBdpgstr6pS3YiQfhG2y7fiWFMT7Nk +MAcc/Vvzg0zDZ7kjwWwjVYbeJTALoBm9bJuU= Received: by 10.224.64.87 with SMTP id d23mr522741qai.2.1281121787182; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 12:09:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.58.228 with SMTP id i36ls665980qah.4.p; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 12:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.114.93 with SMTP id d29mr428589qaq.18.1281121786208; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 12:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.114.93 with SMTP id d29mr428587qaq.18.1281121785819; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 12:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f51.google.com (mail-vw0-f51.google.com [209.85.212.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y16si977986qce.0.2010.08.06.12.09.44; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 12:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.51; Received: by vws20 with SMTP id 20so6772440vws.10 for ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 12:09:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.62.72 with SMTP id w8mr8546977vch.32.1281121783726; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 12:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.126.220 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 12:09:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 15:09:43 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Illogical English Sign From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e887811d5436d048d2c68b6 --e0cb4e887811d5436d048d2c68b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ok, so forgetting the fatci bit, you're saying that these two following bridi are different? 1) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i 2) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau I read {lo du'u do tolmo'i} as {lo du'u do tolmo'i zo'e} and the way I understand {zo'e} is that it can be anything (including makau). So I see 2 as being a more specific version of 1. Am I wrong here? hmmm. I think it's about time I went back and re-read le xunre cukta again= . I'm starting to tolmo'i some of the lesser used by me stuff. 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : > > I'm still not quite grasping the difference. > > Suppose you've forgotten that Beijing is the capital of China, and I > can't forget that you've forgotten something, but I can easily forget > what you've forgotten. Then (3) is true but (2) is false. > > > In {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau} the thing that = I > > can't forget is {lo du'u} right? > > More precisely, "lo du'u do tolmo'i makau" > > > In {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo fatci be fa lo du'u do tolmo'i} the > thing > > that I can't forget is again, the fact that you forgot. > > Something, but not necessarily what. > > > The thing that I > > forgot seems to be the same thing here, it's the fact that you've > forgotten > > (something). > > In one case, it's the fact that you've forgotten something (but not > necessarily what that something was), in the other case, it is what > you've forgotten. > > > Maybe I'm misunderstanding what {makau} does. Or I'm misunderstanding > just > > what {lo du'u} is and how it's different from {lo fatci be fa...} > > Forget about "lo fatci be fa lo du'u". It's just more wordage for > plain "lo du'u". > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > >> > hmmm, what's the difference between 2 and 3? I was trying to say "I > am > >> > not > >> > able to do the event of forgetting the fact that you've forgotten > >> > (something, who knows what)". > >> > >> That would be (3), but "I can't forget what you've forgotten" can't me= an > >> that. > >> > >> If what you've forgotten is that Beijing is the capital of China, then > >> (1) says I can't forget that Beijing is the capital of China, and (2) > >> says that I can't forget that you've forgotten that Beijing is the > >> capital of China. > >> > >> Both are "I can't forget what you've forgotten". > >> > >> mu'o mi'e xorxes > >> > >> > >> > 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> >> > >> >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Michael Turniansky > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen > > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten". Is the artist saying {m= i > na > >> >> >> kakne > >> >> >> lo nu tolmo'i da poi do tolmo'i ke'a} or {mi na kakne lo nu > tolmo'i > >> >> >> lo > >> >> >> fatci > >> >> >> be fa lo nu do tolmo'i}? > >> >> >> > >> >> > It HAS to be the first one, in English.. the second is "I can't > >> >> > forget THAT you've forgotten." > >> >> > >> >> There are three cases: > >> >> > >> >> (1) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo se tolmo'i be do > >> >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten." > >> >> > >> >> (2) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau > >> >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten." > >> >> > >> >> (3) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i > >> >> "I can't forget that you've forgotten." > >> >> > >> >> The English is ambiguous between (1) and (2), but Luke wrote (3) in > >> >> Lojban instead of (2), which goes with "that", not with "what". > >> >> > >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >> Groups > >> >> "lojban" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> >> > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups > >> > "lojban" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --e0cb4e887811d5436d048d2c68b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ok, so forgetting the fatci bit, you're saying that these two following= bridi are different?

1) =A0mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'= i lo du'u do tolmo'i
2) =A0mi na kakne lo nu tolmo&#= 39;i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau

I read {lo du'u do tolmo'i} as {lo du'u do = tolmo'i zo'e} and the way I understand {zo'e} is that it can be= anything (including makau). =A0So I see 2 as being a more specific version= of 1. =A0Am I wrong here?

hmmm. =A0I think it's about time I went back and re= -read le xunre cukta again. =A0I'm starting to tolmo'i some of the = lesser used by me stuff.

2010/8/6 Jorge= Llamb=EDas <j= jllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:= 29 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen= @gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm still not quite grasping the difference.

Suppose you've forgotten that Beijing is the capital of China, an= d I
can't forget that you've forgotten something, but I can easily forg= et
what you've forgotten. Then (3) is true but (2) is false.

> In {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau}=A0= the thing that I
> can't forget is {lo du'u} right?

More precisely, "lo du'u do tolmo'i makau"

> In {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo fatci be fa lo du'u do tolmo&= #39;i} the thing
> that I can't forget is again, the fact that you forgot.

Something, but not necessarily what.

>=A0The thing that I
> forgot seems to be the same thing here, it's the fact that you'= ;ve forgotten
> (something).

In one case, it's the fact that you've forgotten something (b= ut not
necessarily what that something was), in the other case, it is what
you've forgotten.

> Maybe I'm misunderstanding what {makau} does. =A0Or I'm misund= erstanding just
> what {lo du'u} is and how it's different from {lo fatci be fa.= ..}

Forget about "lo fatci be fa lo du'u". It's just mo= re wordage for
plain "lo du'u".

mu'o mi'e xorxes


> 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= jjllambias@gmail.com>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > hmmm, what's the difference between 2 and 3? =A0I was try= ing to say "I am
>> > not
>> > able to do the event of forgetting the fact that you've f= orgotten
>> > (something, who knows what)".
>>
>> That would be (3), but "I can't forget what you've fo= rgotten" can't mean
>> that.
>>
>> If what you've forgotten is that Beijing is the capital of Chi= na, then
>> (1) says I can't forget that Beijing is the capital of China, = and (2)
>> says that I can't forget that you've forgotten that Beijin= g is the
>> capital of China.
>>
>> Both are "I can't forget what you've forgotten".=
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>
>>
>> > 2010/8/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Michael Turniansky
>> >> <mturniansky@= gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "I can't forget what you've forgott= en". =A0Is the artist saying {mi na
>> >> >> kakne
>> >> >> lo nu tolmo'i da poi do tolmo'i ke'a= } or {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i
>> >> >> lo
>> >> >> fatci
>> >> >> be fa lo nu do tolmo'i}?
>> >> >>
>> >> > =A0It HAS to be the first one, in English.. the seco= nd is "I can't
>> >> > forget THAT you've forgotten."
>> >>
>> >> There are three cases:
>> >>
>> >> (1) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo se tolmo'i be do=
>> >> =A0 =A0 "I can't forget what you've forgotte= n."
>> >>
>> >> (2) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo= 9;i makau
>> >> =A0 =A0 "I can't forget what you've forgotte= n."
>> >>
>> >> (3) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo= 9;i
>> >> =A0 =A0 "I can't forget that you've forgotte= n."
>> >>
>> >> The English is ambiguous between (1) and (2), but Luke wr= ote (3) in
>> >> Lojban instead of (2), which goes with "that", = not with "what".
>> >>
>> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
>> > Groups
>> > "lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojb= an+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

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