From lojban+bncCICntNPQBRDK96bkBBoEg1W15w@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 09 22:02:31 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Otvkd-0004Ic-6a; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:02:31 -0700 Received: by yxs7 with SMTP id 7sf1844004yxs.16 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:02:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:mime-version :received:received:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=MGiESo9kRDUAgs8U8UGB/345rCciXeeNnlKgDUbQwjc=; b=NtEg3flmRZv31kFfpREYvkdSZvIUkrM/CUF2FgKuEUlgHbQImmQxhs0JXw78IB8pHh B/rHD6FjHv6VZYQNyMAMuciAgpeL2X2osU22uVXt2XxtNoaZaXq05SpA7cZ/GeXTI3Tj uqF9GiXDbJ12evBP53y9I8IuyHxsKZ8tbpXv0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=lkCk5L+8nONQd2wXtrc33pOfifQwKV+B0+ctlsTYnmlM1LXRBG9H0wvRE2Cm2/sbXu PleunBSGZ/P8aeVFsnArQ02pt7f9Vh8AdyreRhnKfQn3/XYD/wqjDFy/iaUpujgpz/k6 yRb5/DnsT6AuBlXOzbynnzM85NwvY9dx6dMPs= Received: by 10.101.27.33 with SMTP id e33mr712938anj.57.1284094922880; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.146.2 with SMTP id y2ls3015222ann.6.p; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.175.31 with SMTP id c31mr689203anp.69.1284094922361; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by p37g2000pra.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 32.174.241.0 References: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100723 Ubuntu/10.04 (lucid) Firefox/3.6.8,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof From: Lindar To: lojban X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam_score: 2.4 X-Spam_score_int: 24 X-Spam_bar: ++ X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > It just doesn't make sense. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes I have tried my best to express -how I feel- about this in the following paragraphs. Sadly I have no facts, logic, or anything solid to back this up. My only case is what I present here. So I mean not to offend, attack, or say "No you're wrong."; simply to state my case and how I personally feel about the issue. [...] Content analysis details: (2.4 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 X_IP Message has X-IP header 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is freemail (lindarthebard[at]yahoo.com) -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [209.85.213.189 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.6 FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 'From' yahoo.com does not match 'Received' headers 0.0 T_FRT_PROFILE2 BODY: ReplaceTags: Profile (2) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4811] 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature > It just doesn't make sense. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes I have tried my best to express -how I feel- about this in the following paragraphs. Sadly I have no facts, logic, or anything solid to back this up. My only case is what I present here. So I mean not to offend, attack, or say "No you're wrong."; simply to state my case and how I personally feel about the issue. That being said, I can't possibly express this without sounding like a douche. 1. You have both ridiculous amounts of time and proficiency against me that I could not possibly test within a reasonable time frame. So we could either operate on the presupposition that I -am- correct so we can test this and know for sure over a reasonable period of time, or we can continue to operate under the assumption that your way (hereafter known as The Wrong Way zo'o) is correct. It wouldn't hurt anything, and it would find an answer. 2. While you are a very productive and valued member of the community, I feel that you haven't been a part of it. I haven't seen you produce anything (like Remo, selkik, or kampu), be the backbone of the community (like Robin), or be a helpful sage to newbies of IRC (like xalbo, ARJ, or Shoulsen). I definitely haven't seen you try to make an effort to reach new audiences and expand the community to new venues of learning and social media like I've been doing/trying/failing at. Really, the only thing I have seen you do is pitch in your two cents here and there. Whether or not any of this is the case, that is how I perceive you. Subsequently, I don't feel like you have very much weight to say much of anything. You come off as old guard, attached to old ways simply because they're what you had when you weren't old guard, and completely out of touch with anything modern. You sound to me like how a surgeon from 1910 must sound to a modern one. 3. Whether or not you or anyone else has directly viewed any kind of statistic or result based on any new learning style, the unfortunate truth is that I have spent at least 20 hours per month (likely much more than that) teaching new people, and I have directly observed that people that learn from CLL or L4B (and subsequently use {cu} over everything else), don't understand why we have terminators, don't grasp their use very easily, and have a very hard time understanding when they are needed. These students invariably speak very clunky Lojban that is riddled with grammatical flaws or uncomfortable phrasings and is frequently shifted around in strange ways to accomodate for the fact that they can't actually say what they want to say without {cu}. There have even been cases of people being able to speak perfectly coherent Lojban upon first entering the channel, but then ask me what {ku} means. One of my current students, Amber Shadow (not sure if he goes by anything else, he may have posted here) has been taught the new way, and is doing extremely well. I actually completely left out {cu} until he asked, and he even commented that he didn't understand why it was necessary since at most one needs two terminators before any selbri. It's extremely unfortunate that I have no log or evidence of any of this, you really just have to take my and kribacr's word on it. 4. Nobody wants to stay with the community long enough to prove either point. The sad reality of it is that no matter how hard we teach this way and no matter how many students we actually get to learn and speak this way, our new students don't actually stick with us. What it comes down to, in my opinion, is that you learned the wrong way, and simply by merit of having learned the wrong way -the best-, you now claim that you're right. This is faulty logic. We are in a room full of people trying to put on their shoes. Half of the people have never heard of shoes, the other half don't understand why we need shoes. Barely a tenth of everybody has managed to get one shoe on, and nobody has their laces tied correctly. However, you stand triumphantly at the centre with both shoes on and tied, but you've got them on the wrong damn feet. So it's a toss up between the guy that knows which shoes go on which feet, but isn't great with laces, or the guy that's got his shoes on the wrong feet. Your mileage may vary. The views expressed herein are not claimed to be factual, correct, coherent, lucid, or polite. The views expressed herein are not meant to be rude, pushy, attackish, ignorant, or superior-sounding. Side effects of Lindar may include irritability, upset stomach, acid reflux, headaches, mood swings, sideburns, and a vague to overt feeling of having been insulted and/or that somebody much less intelligent than yourself has just tried to sound smart. Available at participating locations. (NO CASH REDEMPTION VALUE) I hope we gain a mutual understanding through all of this and actually figure out what really works, because the debate is getting tired at this point. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.