From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCGjafkBBoErKaRBw@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 09 22:48:08 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OtwSx-0005B4-0e; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:48:08 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf430585wwe.16 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:47:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=a0+ZHL0gPUrNaEa62I1Z0Ii4nDE0PfkvDfGw5J+DGuw=; b=RwWemiNm4b8S0rVn8PjsunT1nAa+1AGPhmRCSdkpowwWjvB7KutF/++eo/+yum/Izv y7Bw6P5ZdWl1le3falNADBHNWhTDedgsWStPShNO6BlpmRGLJA5gIF550CBxycTw8dQ4 gxQ2OrY7NZsPI5pUIXDLTYYTXOAfRajecq0n4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=tnTJmb4AzgoLE0gW7NvQu4Mza0l9nf3Ip4gZdwx06hD2hx1L/hUMOBTsP8UHThruqe 7sxwOfEk1yZZiHB9ZdzVTF9DWY6GbN+arXCNlVvHAkRbLSrede23iJdLyfeeoWwuhwRL 6yKg9VIPabqudPmSCciCnpFHyRaMKjFFN6KWE= Received: by 10.216.144.38 with SMTP id m38mr33770wej.14.1284097670472; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:47:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.92.203 with SMTP id s11ls2723080wbm.1.p; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.147.73 with SMTP id k9mr20013wbv.18.1284097669410; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.147.73 with SMTP id k9mr20012wbv.18.1284097669362; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f180.google.com (mail-wy0-f180.google.com [74.125.82.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id s70si733923weq.5.2010.09.09.22.47.48; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.180; Received: by wyb40 with SMTP id 40so2875005wyb.39 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:47:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.145.198 with SMTP id p48mr339482wej.18.1284097668111; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.22.199 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 22:47:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 23:47:48 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d99b5f5d5f3f048fe149cc --0016e6d99b5f5d5f3f048fe149cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:02 PM, Lindar wrote: > > 1. You have both ridiculous amounts of time and proficiency against me > that I could not possibly test within a reasonable time frame. So we > could either operate on the presupposition that I -am- correct so we > can test this and know for sure over a reasonable period of time, or > we can continue to operate under the assumption that your way > (hereafter known as The Wrong Way zo'o) is correct. It wouldn't hurt > anything, and it would find an answer. > Not everyone that likes The Wrong Way zo'o is as proficient as .xorxes. I, for instance, have got the grammar down pretty well, but my vocab. is atrocious. I don't see anything wrong with the 'teach {ku} first' way, I just disagree with your view that {cu} is a horribly repulsive thing that should never be used, even to the extent of using {ku} instead, which could lead to the possibility of having {ku kei ge'u ku'o lo'o lu'u}, where you could use {cu}. Now, I admit to not having an example bridi using all those terminators, there may be terminators {cu} doesn't enable elision of I missed, and some of those I listed may not be able to elid with {cu}. It is an extreme example to show my point. My view is that /*terminators*/ are horrible repulsive things that should never be used unless absolutely necessary, but that's probably more a symptom of myself being both an English speaker and one of those jerks from Obamaland, and therefore extremely lazy, than from the method I use to learn {la lojbau}.. > > 2. While you are a very productive and valued member of the community, > I feel that you haven't been a part of it. I haven't seen you produce > anything (like Remo, selkik, or kampu), be the backbone of the > community (like Robin), or be a helpful sage to newbies of IRC (like > xalbo, ARJ, or Shoulsen). I definitely haven't seen you try to make an > effort to reach new audiences and expand the community to new venues > of learning and social media like I've been doing/trying/failing at. > Really, the only thing I have seen you do is pitch in your two cents > here and there. Whether or not any of this is the case, that is how I > perceive you. Subsequently, I don't feel like you have very much > weight to say much of anything. You come off as old guard, attached to > old ways simply because they're what you had when you weren't old > guard, and completely out of touch with anything modern. You sound to > me like how a surgeon from 1910 must sound to a modern one. > .xorxes. is one of the most respected members of this community. I don't think anyone would say his word is law, and most everyone has at least privately disagreed with him on occasion, what he says is well thought out, usually makes a good deal of sense, and is agreeable to the majority if not the entirety of those who listen to him. Also, {xorlo}, the biggest contribution to Lojban since events before I joined. It's named xorlo after the creator of the proposal. > > > 4. Nobody wants to stay with the community long enough to prove either > point. The sad reality of it is that no matter how hard we teach this > way and no matter how many students we actually get to learn and speak > this way, our new students don't actually stick with us. > > Have you managed to determine the likely causes for their casual interest failing to develop into a more serious one? -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6d99b5f5d5f3f048fe149cc Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:02 PM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yaho= o.com> wrote:
<snip>
1. You have both ridiculous amounts of time and proficiency against me
that I could not possibly test within a reasonable time frame. So we
could either operate on the presupposition that I -am- correct so we
can test this and know for sure over a reasonable period of time, or
we can continue to operate under the assumption that your way
(hereafter known as The Wrong Way zo'o) is correct. It wouldn't hur= t
anything, and it would find an answer.

Not everyon= e that likes The Wrong Way zo'o is as proficient as .xorxes. I, for ins= tance, have got the grammar down pretty well, but my vocab. is atrocious. I= don't see anything wrong with the 'teach {ku} first' way, I ju= st disagree with your view that {cu} is a horribly repulsive thing that sho= uld never be used, even to the extent of using {ku} instead, which could le= ad to the possibility of having {ku kei ge'u ku'o lo'o lu'u= }, where you could use {cu}. Now, I admit to not having an example bridi us= ing all those terminators, there may be terminators {cu} doesn't enable= elision of I missed, and some of those I listed may not be able to elid wi= th {cu}. It is an extreme example to show my point.

My view is that /terminators/ are horrible repulsive things that= should never be used unless absolutely necessary, but that's probably = more a symptom of myself being both an English speaker and one of those jer= ks from Obamaland, and therefore extremely lazy, than from the method I use= to learn {la lojbau}..

2. While you are a very productive and valued member of the community,
I feel that you haven't been a part of it. I haven't seen you produ= ce
anything (like Remo, selkik, or kampu), be the backbone of the
community (like Robin), or be a helpful sage to newbies of IRC (like
xalbo, ARJ, or Shoulsen). I definitely haven't seen you try to make an<= br> effort to reach new audiences and expand the community to new venues
of learning and social media like I've been doing/trying/failing at. Really, the only thing I have seen you do is pitch in your two cents
here and there. Whether or not any of this is the case, that is how I
perceive you. Subsequently, I don't feel like you have very much
weight to say much of anything. You come off as old guard, attached to
old ways simply because they're what you had when you weren't old guard, and completely out of touch with anything modern. You sound to
me like how a surgeon from 1910 must sound to a modern one.

.xorxes. is one of the most respected members of this community. = I don't think anyone would say his word is law, and most everyone has a= t least privately disagreed with him on occasion, what he says is well thou= ght out, usually makes a good deal of sense, and is agreeable to the majori= ty if not the entirety of those who listen to him.

Also, {xorlo}, the biggest contribution to Lojban since events before I= joined. It's named xorlo after the creator of the proposal.
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border= -left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<snip>
4. Nobody wants to stay with the community long enough to prove either
point. The sad reality of it is that no matter how hard we teach this
way and no matter how many students we actually get to learn and speak
this way, our new students don't actually stick with us.
<snip>
=A0
Have you managed to determi= ne the likely causes for their casual interest failing to develop into a mo= re serious one?


--
mu'o mi= 9;e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

--
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