From lojban+bncCICntNPQBRCyj6fkBBoEljjc9A@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 09 22:53:07 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OtwXm-0005Qy-Qi; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:53:07 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf1829003gya.16 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:52:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:mime-version :received:received:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lGTthIhFocu7n45sW79Suo4KCvU21AXQ2PPFTW6yk6c=; b=Et0aAImocFPIpbX0U932NjADR08oC5gT+/PrzlKuH0Fq4x95mjQp9M3rZGeNh8zkwq dI+9GqRImu6mw4YKrvN9iJL+m5t/31LPBNPGl8d2ek/myU8mezMgBunOEg4va0MFnS+H 1C2gy2FfGs2v+/HkkglCiLEgCGjZekqRmZ3IE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=xlz/JzKBAm3IgD7idqNECiER9mhnASGOI64eYaaPLMe7s+FCy5aV/4zgnMl9TcSRNZ Qkq2P+TL+///VMxq/VyFSvj0LPPb/TaHC9oVFn8s4I7e+dv36dmuy+YbkzDWEh3EuRHR KGPM+iCmHGZaAyxQZB0awq/9TufeVubWdSPXo= Received: by 10.101.142.33 with SMTP id u33mr2018ann.2.1284097970744; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:52:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.194.29 with SMTP id w29ls3027374anp.1.p; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:52:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.23.10 with SMTP id 10mr1132anw.36.1284097970245; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 22:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by a4g2000prm.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 22:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 22:52:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100910051923.GV20652@digitalkingdom.org> X-IP: 32.174.241.0 References: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> <20100910051923.GV20652@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100723 Ubuntu/10.04 (lucid) Firefox/3.6.8,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <632a9051-1878-4241-90f1-dfc9d202f7df@a4g2000prm.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof From: Lindar To: lojban X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The problem is that what you describe could easily be about having > had an in-person teacher, more than anything else. =A0We don't have > any examples, that I'm aware of, of people who were taught by-hand > with {cu} as a major part of the teaching. =A0Well, except for > everyone who got their first lesson in person at various logfests, > but you say we all don't count, which is very frustrating by the > way. Precisely why your mileage may vary. I don't know anything about logfest. My world-view is coloured by my image of the community. What is accessible to the average jackoff like myself and seems to have the largest concentration of active people is what I consider the real community. I have no personal experience with or stake in logfest (I would love for that to change, don't get me wrong), so my opinion doesn't reflect that. > The only way to actually make a valid comparison would be to teach > interactively in both fashions. That sounds like an amazing experiment. I would love to test that out, but we'd have to find two willing participants. > Not that it matters: if what you're doing is working, keep doing it. Thank you. I shall. > That doesn't mean everything else is wrong, though, and I'd ilke you > to stop saying that. This is part of what I was worried about. I'm not factually saying anything. That's probably why my argument doesn't mean anything, though. I am saying that, in my opinion, as one who regularly teaches, it is wrong. However, I have certainly learned from this, and will start collecting data. =3DD > That's a flat-out lie, so I hope you corrected him on this point. That was a slight exaggeration on my part. I tend to do that a lot. It's a frequently observed thing, not a law/fact. =3DD > And in my opinion, there is no evidence that the way we learned is > the wrong way, particularily. Referring to it as such is a lot > worse than the faulty logic you describe. Right, I'm not saying it is. You and xorxes are both wearing two shoes, there's no doubt about that. I'm trying to differentiate between fact and opinion here. I am fully aware that there is no established fact. By the very merit that you are the metaphorical two- shoe-wearer, you are de-facto correct. I'm simply explaining my personal viewpoint. ((Meta-topic discussion: How do I convey accurately that I am not asserting, but expressing? What I feel and what I know to be true/ known are two completely different things, and I am/was trying to express the former and absolutely nothing at all of the latter, but it seems that you have interpreted my post as the latter, rather than the intended former. I'm glad that I haven't come off as rude, however. Thank you for guiding me in proper discourse and discussion.)) Also, re: xorxes writes stuff. (disclaimer: see above bits about 'expression not assertion') I could spend all day writing albums of music in, creating shows/art/ comics about, or writing in, Lojban. That doesn't make me a part of the community. The fact that I am grass-roots involved in teaching, talking to people via the mailing list/IRC/facebook/twitter/identica/ tumblr, and involved in a larger social network of Lojbanists who discuss Lojban and things Lojbanic makes me part of the community. Writing a book is doing something by oneself, which by its very nature is not a communal effort. So, just making absolutely sure. Nothing I have said here is meant to assert anything, only to express my feelings, which I'm already aware are entirely separate from fact. ((Thank you for the posts, Robin. Your input is always appreciated, and I think it's fantastic that you make a point of thanking people for doing what they do here.)) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.