From lojban+bncCK7Yk5CUCxCZo6fkBBoE4WvrwA@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 09 23:35:24 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OtxCf-0000mB-JK; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:35:24 -0700 Received: by qwi4 with SMTP id 4sf1554104qwi.16 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:35:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=or0gNscesWy6cNX3eUg26KGR1RF9yFMUJRdmDfItKpY=; b=0qUtD7iKDDMICgjQ/QLNuiGKZejWfAsNYdBhiKynWWFAl/fvcQsmj22x9D6m6wZ520 s+fQtZIp6KnU5j1S1JNA3rogMZjFzifYW7i1yY+WuIw2zPEsTcmYD/K2MVLTaWjN8jVX Qor+U5cSRpzIBe37PaHBdVy3MZ3kFUMdjjRdQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=2BgEWLHEQPpP4skdbpXIP4Tl7JkwrPUIarpqnkli0apgUeJ7XR9pXoOG6E/0D8ACeE xqrWYTPdGQo4hFdHdCrjMVQGqVDF5uT6NeA1xoS9IBsq4PGkQu0sOnQaZPaN2MHW6yjr pn052Gjt/5d45PFbn4XwJZK8YoJOVU59HEH0c= Received: by 10.224.75.20 with SMTP id w20mr6637qaj.23.1284100505534; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.66.218 with SMTP id o26ls1484154qai.3.p; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.35.166 with SMTP id p38mr5859qad.27.1284100504954; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.35.166 with SMTP id p38mr5858qad.27.1284100504923; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f169.google.com (mail-qy0-f169.google.com [209.85.216.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id mz6si1173282qcb.5.2010.09.09.23.35.03; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.169; Received: by qyk8 with SMTP id 8so1393212qyk.14 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:35:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.219.206 with SMTP id hv14mr207195qcb.261.1284100503741; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 23:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.1.69 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 23:35:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:35:03 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] lo jbove'a cukta From: Remo Dentato To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Friday, September 10, 2010, Lindar wrote: > While you and others may not agree, I have spent a LOT of time in the > past two months teaching students, and I find that they all have a > much better grasp of terminators, and thus have fewer problems > understanding the grammar in general, when {cu} is not taught. .... > So, while you may not understand the argument, I do ask of you that > you leave the terminators in and only use {cu} where I have done so. Actually i feel absolutely unqualified to have a theoretical opinion on this. I' m just as newbie as I was last year. Having a programmer's background I do understand "ku" and friends as closing braces so I see that once you use them you don't need cu because there's no possible confusion. What I don't understand is why "cu" should be considered a shortcut or a "goto" (as someone suggested). I see it as a separator like ":" in the C ternary operator "x?y:z". So, in my mind, I have: "le karce ku klama" -> "{karce} klama" and "le karce cu klama" -> "karce : klama" I still have a great difficulty in reading lojban, it appears too "flat" to my eyes. I spend a lot of time visually scanning the text to find "hooks" from which I can start identify the grammatical elements. One of this hooks I've become used to look for is "cu" because I think I can reasonably expect to find the main brivla after it. I don't feel the same with "ku" as it appears to me as potentially just being closing a sumti, with no indication about the main brivla. That's the reason I tend to use "cu" and elide "ku" rather than the other way around. It makes easier to myself to read the text back. Of course I tend to think that what is helpful to me it's helpful for others too, but this might be just my selfish ego :) When I started the translation, My objective was to learn more lojban and I set two standards for my translation: 1 it must be grammatical 2 it must convey the original meaning as much as possible and for now I feel I've met my objective within those standards at the best of my knowledge. I know that my translation can be made better in many aspects, both from a style and a grammar perpective but, at the moment, it reflects my current understanding of lojban. I hope I could produce better translations in the future with the help and comments of the lojban community, and also that those translations will meet higher standards. For now I would feel uncomfortable to drop the "cu" (and thus abandoning my visual hooks) without a deeper understanding of what the benfits are, when I'll learn more I'll maybe develop a different reading habit and might use a different style. remod -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.