From lojban+bncCKH6vKekGBDw-ajkBBoEOK3JRg@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 10 07:13:21 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ou4Lt-0003xh-3r; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:13:21 -0700 Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12sf2742849qyk.16 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:13:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VayCxlebeX09KVkIO/U8QJZELejY9JwNcVaSOQQWDj8=; b=IWhcEv+R0Mciq11ZlW1XXsBs18Ojre39QRS8piu/BE9Qvn257sQvO2ibiWtizKK4MD Q84WFOsXktgh8Qzbkrlf1UoUUSi1ZyVaGC+MiCYsfleK7p5J0UfEr/eNP4t7XA4V5mB5 9jSY5pXMbcXsNdWBv3EJo8pq2RRMrVCm/oOJQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=TUQAZ3HyPEGyZiE/Q6Tj57Jx43Y+ev+YVq3uarS03Qn8JgHNd7IyXiY0eR18/jbgBm KHIbJfiSLOxhh2a7HQlJlBkTrlmig/+3cE6/6H95w5/8tOPEmEMFf+s6pIHr9d1hc5Bx xit2jzEA0bKtJCgWF4pTxAv3Tcebdshtyst1E= Received: by 10.224.64.204 with SMTP id f12mr41280qai.8.1284127984181; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:13:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.97.224 with SMTP id m32ls1541034qan.2.p; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.45.139 with SMTP id e11mr39665qaf.15.1284127983480; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.53.67 with SMTP id f43mr26572eec.3.1284116589903; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.53.67 with SMTP id f43mr26571eec.3.1284116589853; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f173.google.com (mail-ey0-f173.google.com [209.85.215.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id r57si2578981eeh.1.2010.09.10.04.03.08; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of fagricipni@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.173; Received: by eyf18 with SMTP id 18so1729341eyf.4 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:03:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.72.16 with SMTP id s16mr738392wed.20.1284116588638; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.63.131 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:03:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:03:08 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof From: "H. Felton" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: fagricipni@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of fagricipni@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=fagricipni@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Lindar, If there is something that I have learned from teaching things other things than Lojban, it is that the best way for one person to learn something can be the hardest way for another person to learn something. *I* have had no trouble remembering what "ku" means, even though most of the sentences that I have read in The Draft Reference grammar have used "cu" to elide the "ku" in the first sumti; but I have to admit that the fact that I come from a computer programming background may have some bearing on my lack of difficulties. If you are saying that "lo cipni cu klama la bastn. la .atlantas. le dargu le karce" should be expressed as "lo cipni ku klama la bastn. ku la .atlantas. ku le dargu ku le karce ku" ; ie, with *all* those "ku"s, then I disagree quite vehemently -- I admit that the second sentence is not incorrect, but using *all* of those "ku"s is ridiculously extreme redundancy. However, if you are saying that it should be expressed as "lo cipni ku klama la bastn. la .atlantas. le dargu le karce" ; while I'm not sure that using "ku" is *better* than using "cu", I'd certainly agree that it is no worse. On 9/9/10, Luke Bergen wrote: > Pragmatically, I use {cu} all the time (sometimes even when it's > completely unnecessary e.g. "mi cu klama"). {cu} is a shortcut and in > spoken language people tend to prefer shortcuts. I also agree that Bergen's "mi cu klama" should be "mi klama"; the "cu" is an unwarranted redundancy for a simple pro-sumti; however if the "mi" were followed by a complex "noi ... [ku'o]" expression ending with a "ke ... [ke'e]" expression which ends with a "be ... bei ... [be'o]" expression, I'd have to say that I'd agree with using "cu" to eliminate the need for some of the terminators and/or as a cue that the next word is the selbri of the bridi. I would like to see a better argument of why *I* should start using "ku" instead of "cu" in "lo cipni cu klama la bastn. la .atlantas. le dargu le karce" . "cu" is a "harder" indicator of the selbri of the bridi than "ku" simply terminating a sumti because in the type of nested sumti I have described in the last paragraph, even if the "mi" were replaced with a simple sumti; eg, lo cipni, and the "noi" were replaced with "poi"; the "poi" expression could contain internal "ku"s, so knowing if a particular "ku" ends the complex sumti requires more analysis than knowing that a "cu" means "close this sumti and all other expressions subordinate to that sumti because the next word is the selbri of the bridi". -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.