From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCm_KjkBBoEtLC5iA@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 10 07:18:33 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ou4Qs-0004Ig-Jz; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:18:32 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf2034668gya.16 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:18:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4do5lIB2d/i6tbA15a8LeW6raelZoJEoWQlzeUxY7B0=; b=gt9hVj5T+OPuWT+jet5LkGor1hTvm4H3RM3mTKXVfItvp/0uiti1eBLVeTF2SGrsGo +i8/HoGNPGZjKaqqzLTVLihAB2w4VT34o4ucktBP2ImcaMvlPi0Hh6F9qX5knDv6QXzK DDHbanVYMamSmbpT0EOJZAxMnTmSZ/26+4W6E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dkMFsYtBpX2+8LwW5whl8B+kjqvHZi8MDUOSPhB1veKJa9Y8m10i6JFHOO+KZDExiu 0QioYdXuDn/VCi+sC5KFyl0CK5ODiUy5BJtGSEyjU3bMzSPUd4ffLV73tnk3Q8+dnIBK aoHK/npw+7mMnq6+5u+X+o3RuC3/lK1JosXn4= Received: by 10.91.43.20 with SMTP id v20mr104136agj.13.1284128294568; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:18:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.145.1 with SMTP id s1ls3279170ybd.1.p; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.54.14 with SMTP id c14mr211245yba.38.1284128293922; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.54.14 with SMTP id c14mr211244yba.38.1284128293893; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id a6si1872294ybo.14.2010.09.10.07.18.12; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.119; Received: (qmail 28407 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Sep 2010 14:18:12 -0000 Message-ID: <359845.20486.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 7S07g1QVM1nlZV1gUW5wc_4z62Cz7fNi3.c7b5gBtruFPNC eTFW4TgV3OKuSL8I4RNToOMwRQ0f.b34KE_rpGyiS.2VxhGmbwR2MTt_kYvR wPphN3J4sKjsa2RBZz2zh0tXdU9DvjXO7UgDA8H8iMi2DuFGYwASuUBp0hzS qKm_tNI4KGGUmPdw09QY.HWl3bI6ebTMhKEOio3xAyUBRUWmxHGfIAwV1.7u nGQK.Jz8TMPrsysVf6vD9SuBMB3zQbBtcJWpIQr7k5kRFKFK_6mt3KjHXRtQ qikE7nI6DpT9lQBihH5hNHczG.s4..iwjbISDu70RVVuDrxWc0d.bHY9A.Ba ayKc6iCGow7rtFVDp.AdBkZRuPrg0SYlJl5Gk4jk- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:18:11 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:18:11 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another two cents. As someone who came to Lojban from Loglan, I am=20 prepredisposed to use 'cu' always and everywhere possible. One result of t= his=20 (or a concurrent event, at least) is that, despite my logician's sense of t= he=20 necessity of right brackets, I have never been very good at getting them in= or=20 in the right places. Any teaching that heads off that problem has got to b= e an=20 advantage, whether it starts with terminators and introduces 'cu' as a shor= tcut,=20 or starts with 'cu' and gradually unfolds its underlying content. In eithe= r=20 case, students have to learn 'cu' just to read the archives, if nothing els= e;=20 but also for economy (dealing with the pile RHEs that get required with=20 arguments after the verb can be a real nightmare if you meet a=20 not-well-thought-out passage). My casual following of discussions of texts= =20 leads me to think that misbracketting (mainly forgetting an RHE) is among a= t=20 least the top five problems (I think rather higher than lower), =20 And to close with my usual screed: xorlo is the worst thing that happened t= o=20 Lojban, almost enough to launch Logjam 3. From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, September 9, 2010 8:36:03 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and=20 validation thereof On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 10:11 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > What you've got, as far as I can tell, is an interesting pedagogical > technique that produces good early results, but is totally untested > as to its results when students try to reach real expertise. And even if the pedagogical technique does prove to be better (which I am not doubting: In fact that's how I learned terminators too, that's how terminators were taught in the original "diagrammed summary" lesson, and that's how they are taught in CLL, despite Lindar's mistaken beliefs about it. It is only LfB that deviated from that method, and maybe people who learned exclusively from LfB ended up confused about terminators, but most people don't limit themselves to one single learning strategy) so even if that's the best way to teach, which it probably is, it does not follow that one should for ever avoid using "cu". It is simply not possible to learn Lojban and not know how to use "cu" correctly. "cu" (which is not really a terminator) is demonstrably more efficient than any terminator when the choice is between "cu" and a terminator. You learn about "ku" in your first lesson, and about "cu" in your second, or fifth, or whatever lesson, but you do have to learn about "cu" before you can read practically any text in Lojban. I don't think people will start using "ku" instead of "cu" just because they learned "ku" before "cu". It just doesn't make sense. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.