From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCXlqnkBBoEisWeRg@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 10 08:13:46 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ou5IJ-0005fX-Ge; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:13:46 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf536914wwe.16 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:13:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8wmMlXmPUibphUFf9SbBNGegGf82uuNSMdbRWvTZ2eU=; b=PqQb9AxleY5lbymGXjp6z29o3hj3p20GG7dCT5qgCuggqRJms+R+qjvlxkJFQoT3vL IRkde5Hmww1aLUiAdZ6B/L5auiq1EOTX+s/+cgCf7AzlLrS4gw8eAW5rtKFs8pbNpQxh xK1yJyXwJw1kBrdXTk5GCpEbOxqb2MJZyniKw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JxyK5bB6SYmm87kb7XSnYmr3Z4kV5CaNOi6+vufaxPvO5/NybFfQGzwYODFDGYS9PY v2IOYSa7Q/rO9KEajnTCgDqslwXZWOp4eVKdZov8j0PZoOoFr6iah4cw46IydJ0bpHJQ by4nS7ivUDlfWLhC6b6F4ps2/GiWULoEyL26o= Received: by 10.216.144.194 with SMTP id n44mr126601wej.4.1284131607333; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:13:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.237.134 with SMTP id y6ls3413947weq.2.p; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.73.144 with SMTP id v16mr73303wed.12.1284131606193; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.73.144 with SMTP id v16mr73302wed.12.1284131606168; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id k12si907263weq.3.2010.09.10.08.13.25; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.44; Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34so880327wwb.1 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:13:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.138.134 with SMTP id a6mr250301wbu.68.1284131603935; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.151.203 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 08:13:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:13:23 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 8:03 AM, H. Felton wrote: > =A0However, if you > are saying that it should be expressed as > "lo cipni ku klama la bastn. la .atlantas. le dargu le karce" > ; while I'm not sure that using "ku" is *better* than using "cu", > I'd certainly agree that it is no worse. I would argue that "cu" is better, for at least two reasons: (1) From the point of view of the speaker, the rule "always use 'cu' when you need to separate the selbri from what comes before" is easier to remember than the rule "use 'ku', 'kei', 'be'o', 'ku'o', 'ge'u', ... when you need to separate the selbri from what comes before if you can get away with using a single one, otherwise use 'cu'". (2) From the point of view of the listener, "cu" gives more information than any terminator. A terminator tells you that whatever structure it terminates has ended, but it doesn't tell you what comes next. "cu" tells you that whatever pre-selbri structures were open have terminated, and now here comes the selbri. So "cu" is win-win for the speaker and the listener, even in those cases where a single terminator would suffice. As a personal quirk, when I read "lo cipni ku klama" my first instinct is to check back whether I have missed something. Maybe there was another gadri "lo lo cipni ku klama"? Or "lo bevri be lo cipni ku klama"? In other words, my first instict is to suspect that "klama" is not the selbri yet. So it takes more effort for me to process "lo cipni ku klama" than "lo cipni cu klama". > I also agree that Bergen's "mi cu klama" should be "mi klama"; the > "cu" is an unwarranted redundancy for a simple pro-sumti; I am not much bothered by that, and I probably do it sometimes. For some reason an unnecessary terminator bothers me more than an unnecessary separator. In fact I tend to always use "cu" after a cmevla, because I think cmevla should be in sema'o BRIVLA. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.