From lojban+bncCKH6vKekGBCAmKrkBBoEJAFgpw@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 10 12:50:42 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ou9cK-0003eo-Lz; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:41 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf590758wwe.16 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZtABhKz4DA1fLlF2PFPHH1lHhg5ZOpm2ZYjoc6ThTRE=; b=YUirTRe6NLcyCO/EPA9DUXDj70RaE77+wpRDn0/qOaTZ7u/dRFlXWc82eKHRFw6tQt XimBMBXD/xY4TKQqof9kXY1ezYUXdi9zcyiN1b+e5KAWtZAJP5QfZ790rvexmwW3aLAl FdKm6G9HlmR7WD6h2deWcbzHjd/EWufpjDVwY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ybl8lmBnnI7tqi4FFMKC/aLnBamSdCUIDlp7zRq54huuXnDeSxU/L9QxUzk0YUusJM rOz+9TNvFh2nnBf7Hhizk8hbqGQxm+36zSu4tFvdhCnc67QcNXrBsucZtHwrp79RdcIV kHdJP9bPlOmPAq9lrGQdHs4E6foFk5WaKb6so= Received: by 10.216.144.67 with SMTP id m45mr209981wej.2.1284148224248; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.3.29 with SMTP id 29ls506900eeg.0.p; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.127.74 with SMTP id c50mr69348eei.19.1284148223330; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.127.74 with SMTP id c50mr69347eei.19.1284148222648; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f177.google.com (mail-ey0-f177.google.com [209.85.215.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b5si3062574eei.4.2010.09.10.12.50.21; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of fagricipni@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.177; Received: by eye22 with SMTP id 22so2257690eye.22 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.4.19 with SMTP id 19mr1182354wei.110.1284148220616; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.63.131 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:50:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:50:20 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof From: "H. Felton" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: fagricipni@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of fagricipni@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=fagricipni@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 9/10/10, Jameson Orndorff wrote: > On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 7:03 AM, H. Felton wrote: >> If you are saying that >> "lo cipni cu klama la bastn. la .atlantas. le dargu le karce" >> should be expressed as >> "lo cipni ku klama la bastn. ku la .atlantas. ku le dargu ku le karce ku" >> ; ie, with *all* those "ku"s, then I disagree quite vehemently > > I also disagree quite vehemently, as {la .atlantas. ku}* is not > grammatical. {ku} only works on {la} if it's taking a selbri, not if > it's taking a cmevla. Sorry, I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on > you, but this is another sort of thing we try to emphasize in our > teaching as well. (This may also be more of a point that selbri names > aren't well taught in the 'original method' either.) I've done an incomplete search through The Draft Reference Grammar, and so far the only cases where "ku" is *required* after a cmene is when that cmene is a selbri, but I have seen no mention of the fact that it is *prohibited* after a cmevla. If it is then there are other rules that I am unaware of in Lojban cmene. The Draft Reference Grammar compares: "mi viska la nanmu poi terpa le ke'a xirma [ku]" {I see that-named( man which fears the of-IT horse )} to "mi viska la nanmu ku poi terpa le ke'a xirma" {I see that-named( "Man" ) which fears the of-IT horse} -- this *is* a case where the "ku" is required, but it is of the nature that I described above: the cmene is a selbri. *My* problem is that I had assumed that "la cip. poi terpa le ke'a xirma" would mean {that-named( "cip." which fears the of-IT horse)}; ie, without the "ku" immediately following the "cip." the "poi" expression would become part of the cmene in that case as well. And if it is/were required that a cmene that starts with a cmevla end at the last cmevla in the sequence of continuous cmevla -- The Draft Reference Grammar already gives "[la] don. kicotes." (with a reference to the fact that the *modern* Spanish pronunciation of "Don Quixote" would be Lojbanized differently) as an acceptable cmene --, would that exclude writing "la me la cip. poi terpa le ke'a xirma"? (If "me la spagetis." is a valid selbri to attach a "poi" expression to then the inner "me la cip." should also be.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.