From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDLmqrkBBoE6iSHNg@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 10 12:56:13 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ou9hg-0003w3-DO; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:56:13 -0700 Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17sf428556fxm.16 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:56:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zsy7HCsqcrNNjaZnqsG7gx5+j9gLY+d1pcZ5FQjFZ5Y=; b=r7r4GPXW/n50xIuP6ywIWR8p6vtdvfZztg4Fx3e1d9BKcvmPtC0dXFG+kaz9RF/QxZ whnupXUjGg6d4PlGo0bl5ShURwZ16xoAdpGxsEz6qTGWjxuADhFbRnzF+MItmV/9ul/K XO0RRmUdRyentg2ku0hi37uVNO30lg0oShU1s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=U4Ocf49v32ctv8nVikxbZO9h0iocjkjMZytT/trbjExIiqLyF6OwifcL8B7sXr56tZ Aovuot2/3ju3EexLZauqQl07B+4qRDy0iQulzP51eaCS2fr65yOVIx/RpQtOsiwiev7e 679uSTobEosQ23JY8hZjIMRzIfhmDeXVwOMIM= Received: by 10.223.94.133 with SMTP id z5mr39505fam.23.1284148555783; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:55:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.137.193 with SMTP id x1ls3374299bkt.0.p; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.80.167 with SMTP id t39mr45799bkk.23.1284148554892; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.80.167 with SMTP id t39mr45798bkk.23.1284148554837; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f50.google.com (mail-bw0-f50.google.com [209.85.214.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n18si1538228bkw.2.2010.09.10.12.55.53; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.50; Received: by mail-bw0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 17so2964752bwz.23 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:55:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.82.136 with SMTP id b8mr893742bkl.38.1284148553412; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.98.71 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 12:55:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100910011141.GS20652@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:55:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Teaching methods, especially WRT terminators, and validation thereof From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d641b35d6faf048fed22a2 --0016e6d641b35d6faf048fed22a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 That's unfortunate. I would read {la .cip. noi gerku cu batci lo mrinau} as "that which is named named 'sheep' (which is a dog) bit the mailman" not "that which is named 'sheep (which is a dog)' bit the mailman". That is, I would assume that the elided [ku] would go between {la .cip.} and {noi gerku}. From what you're saying it sounds like the elided [ku] would go between {noi gerku} and {cu batci}. yuck On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 3:50 PM, H. Felton wrote: > On 9/10/10, Jameson Orndorff wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 7:03 AM, H. Felton wrote: > >> If you are saying that > >> "lo cipni cu klama la bastn. la .atlantas. le dargu le karce" > >> should be expressed as > >> "lo cipni ku klama la bastn. ku la .atlantas. ku le dargu ku le karce > ku" > >> ; ie, with *all* those "ku"s, then I disagree quite vehemently > > > > I also disagree quite vehemently, as {la .atlantas. ku}* is not > > grammatical. {ku} only works on {la} if it's taking a selbri, not if > > it's taking a cmevla. Sorry, I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on > > you, but this is another sort of thing we try to emphasize in our > > teaching as well. (This may also be more of a point that selbri names > > aren't well taught in the 'original method' either.) > > I've done an incomplete search through The Draft Reference Grammar, > and so far the only cases where "ku" is *required* after a cmene is > when that cmene is a selbri, but I have seen no mention of the fact > that it is *prohibited* after a cmevla. If it is then there are > other rules that I am unaware of in Lojban cmene. > > The Draft Reference Grammar compares: > "mi viska la nanmu poi terpa le ke'a xirma [ku]" > {I see that-named( man which fears the of-IT horse )} > to > "mi viska la nanmu ku poi terpa le ke'a xirma" > {I see that-named( "Man" ) which fears the of-IT horse} > -- this *is* a case where the "ku" is required, but it is of the > nature that I described above: the cmene is a selbri. *My* problem > is that I had assumed that "la cip. poi terpa le ke'a xirma" would > mean {that-named( "cip." which fears the of-IT horse)}; ie, without > the "ku" immediately following the "cip." the "poi" expression > would become part of the cmene in that case as well. > > And if it is/were required that a cmene that starts with a cmevla > end at the last cmevla in the sequence of continuous cmevla -- The > Draft Reference Grammar already gives "[la] don. kicotes." (with a > reference to the fact that the *modern* Spanish pronunciation of > "Don Quixote" would be Lojbanized differently) as an acceptable > cmene --, would that exclude writing "la me la cip. poi terpa le > ke'a xirma"? (If "me la spagetis." is a valid selbri to attach a > "poi" expression to then the inner "me la cip." should also be.) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6d641b35d6faf048fed22a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's unfortunate. =A0I would read {la .cip. noi gerku cu batci lo mri= nau} as "that which is named named 'sheep' (which is a dog) bi= t the mailman" not "that which is named 'sheep (which is a do= g)' bit the mailman". =A0That is, I would assume that the elided [= ku] would go between {la .cip.} and {noi gerku}. =A0From what you're sa= ying it sounds like the elided [ku] would go between {noi gerku} and {cu ba= tci}. =A0yuck =A0

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 3:50 PM, H. Felton <= span dir=3D"ltr"><fagricipni@gma= il.com> wrote:
On 9/10/10, Jameson Orndorff <jtorndorff@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 7:03 AM, H. Felton <fagricipni@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you are saying that
>> "lo cipni cu klama la bastn. la .atlantas. le dargu le karce&= quot;
>> should be expressed as
>> "lo cipni ku klama la bastn. ku la .atlantas. ku le dargu ku = le karce ku"
>> ; ie, with *all* those "ku"s, then I disagree quite vehe= mently
>
> I also disagree quite vehemently, as {la .atlantas. ku}* is not
> grammatical. {ku} only works on {la} if it's taking a selbri, not = if
> it's taking a cmevla. Sorry, I don't mean to sound like I'= m picking on
> you, but this is another sort of thing we try to emphasize in our
> teaching as well. (This may also be more of a point that selbri names<= br> > aren't well taught in the 'original method' either.)

I've done an incomplete search through The Draft Reference Gramma= r,
and so far the only cases where "ku" is *required* after a cmene = is
when that cmene is a selbri, but I have seen no mention of the fact
that it is *prohibited* after a cmevla. =A0If it is then there are
other rules that I am unaware of in Lojban cmene.

The Draft Reference Grammar compares:
"mi viska la nanmu poi terpa le ke'a xirma [ku]"
{I see that-named( man which fears the of-IT horse )}
to
"mi viska la nanmu ku poi terpa le ke'a xirma"
{I see that-named( "Man" ) which fears the of-IT horse}
=A0-- this *is* a case where the "ku" is required, but it is of t= he
nature that I described above: the cmene is a selbri. =A0*My* problem
is that I had assumed that "la cip. poi terpa le ke'a xirma" = would
mean {that-named( "cip." which fears the of-IT horse)}; ie, witho= ut
the "ku" immediately following the "cip." the "poi= " expression
would become part of the cmene in that case as well.

And if it is/were required that a cmene that starts with a cmevla
end at the last cmevla in the sequence of continuous cmevla -- The
Draft Reference Grammar already gives "[la] don. kicotes." (with = a
reference to the fact that the *modern* Spanish pronunciation of
"Don Quixote" would be Lojbanized differently) as an acceptable cmene --, would that exclude writing "la me la cip. poi terpa le
ke'a xirma"? (If "me la spagetis." is a valid selbri to = attach a
"poi" expression to then the inner "me la cip." should = also be.)

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