From lojban+bncCICntNPQBRDd5K_kBBoEQ1CsLg@googlegroups.com Sat Sep 11 14:19:53 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OuXU0-00028J-7B; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:19:53 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf3010050gwb.16 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:19:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:mime-version :received:received:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=7RfxE/UHSuGfwoeVGPmyc2OUHgBG3fdkEuANJjYiino=; b=bmQkjrCFs/zhQGt4d1y3hq7Osut3S5R6Kj85RKdxjNoUsuhV3AdyEk8BSWMxlJOVDL WjOIuEhrji5PgbN2+/slfDGzOhYbxrh5GxfXdced6YZx+Za6W78xPT83pcT+0aXYg33E wEBhAfKBNUpHEUgAj/l9yK2bekAvu9MR3tDGo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DdP1qNST7A2THfLf1ibMPUz7b7rmSXthobYYtKWk+bTYJOlUx4AKWG/8k5DOBkLEyp 0fiQl0Cw5m/ydcVnOhCD79Q50VPKzMqrra/tAXa8Ixpzfn/QeP8lJ2kngjy7UG0q4GKf /h21KYLrlh0M6MXwhbhhtMyZ1+zqCzE3pUf1g= Received: by 10.101.36.20 with SMTP id o20mr69866anj.38.1284239965439; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:19:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.131.11 with SMTP id i11ls3568281ann.5.p; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:19:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.235.38 with SMTP id i38mr71422anh.47.1284239964886; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by x24g2000pro.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 14:19:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 166.135.43.245 References: <7a4fca9e-1da6-488e-b573-97050714db87@u5g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <201009111537.53075.jezuch@interia.pl> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100825 Ubuntu/10.04 (lucid) Firefox/3.6.9,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Dialects From: Lindar To: lojban X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I wouldn't go so far as to call the variations in the way we speak > Lojban "dialects", I would just call them "styles". =A0There aren't > really any separate speaking communities that have been diverging. 1. Linguistics . a variety of a language that is distinguished from other varieties of the same language by features of phonology, grammar, and vocabulary, and by its use by a group of speakers who are set off from others geographically or socially. So by its base definition, it's almost impossible for Lojban to have a dialect because it is so different. It's not spoken by any one region, and people across regions speak it the same way. It's a new kind of language in a new kind of environment, so we have to change the definition. There is a very clear difference, to me, between old speakers ({le broda cu brode}) and new speakers ({.i lo broda ku brode}) in the way they think and express things. There's a variety of the language that seems to come mostly from Sweden wherein the selbri is almost always placed first (I see this a lot from donri, and a bit from snan IIRC). The only way we could have dialects according to the standard definition at this point would be phonology (there's a clear difference between German, American, Scandanavian, and the-rest-of- Europe Lojban) and its use by a group of speakers who are set off from others 'geographically' (mriste vs. irc) or socially (non-sampla/non- linguists vs. linguists vs. sampla). I really think that this requires a lot more research and documentation. Perhaps we should start recording particular features common in the expressions of others? We'll see if we can find a common link. 2. a provincial, rural, or socially distinct variety of a language that differs from the standard language, esp. when considered as substandard. It's a bit of a stretch, but the ancient CLLbau that we run into every so often really sounds like this to me. =3DD 3. a special variety of a language: The literary dialect is usually taken as the standard language. This seems like a close emerging description. I've been reading (the plural of anecdote is not data!!) during various discussions of terminators vs. not terminators (noodles... don't noodles...) that using more/full terminators seems more literary/scholarly/royal. Perhaps my variety of language to yours is like Oxford English to standard American? Sounds obnoxious, but very proper? 4. a language considered as one of a group that have a common ancestor: Persian, Latin, and English are Indo-European dialects. Ahhhh... by this definition Lojban is a dialect of Loglan, is it not? =3DD 5. jargon or cant. Hmmm.... > There's slightly different Lojban spoken on the mailing list vs IRC, > but on the whole it's spoken two different ways by the exact same > people, so I'm inclined to think of it as stylistic differences in a Okay, look at England. Drastically small! There are three different dialects just in London. > single dialect. =A0When we get a localized speaking community having > regular RL meetings (looks like the Bay Area might be first?) it'll be > interesting to see if any local distinctions emerge. I think that's a bit anti-internet biased. I personally consider various areas of the internet to be different geographic regions. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.