From lojban+bncCO2N0YfCFhCxhrDkBBoEakPvmg@googlegroups.com Sat Sep 11 15:31:28 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OuYbU-0006S5-EY; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:31:28 -0700 Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12sf4250069qyk.16 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:31:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to :mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aVX+1cLNUgWUFHRzEjxXw0jKmDTVgdK3ivR+JVt1PWo=; b=uFwwgyMajxaTS/TlS726+w86sYvFk5R3OXCDZiUu9ToEDK8sy/u+YOVq8WAkXqlNUi BfcbpvWn3Zp8/3yN0Vh7hGBtyudWkwVCxqSzIsoGHqPBpHrm1r7dNVU9X7IPSpgGYoQX swVOnbUKzBO4YrPNkqneXP79B7DCeW0rMxtLg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to :mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=2X15nrWHE4YWsbkSh3JUkDDhFD0L5vxoUyRXGqaAzHYb4t65DDsaMdOhqh2B3i89NV zDKf96Z98erckW1dXG/CBJMe0N+zfuvR131j05A8xrsKiP0T4oahvV+AUefXwwnAPsnO ZV6TWhNAg9VBboJLb4nVQL7UT4ml5fyEpS6sQ= Received: by 10.229.78.197 with SMTP id m5mr131848qck.47.1284244273689; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:31:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.207.84 with SMTP id fx20ls3323667qcb.0.p; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.191.137 with SMTP id dm9mr169215qcb.17.1284244272927; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.191.137 with SMTP id dm9mr169214qcb.17.1284244272891; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from li60-119.members.linode.com (li60-119.members.linode.com [97.107.130.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x2si2297224qcq.3.2010.09.11.15.31.12; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 15:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 97.107.130.119 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of kpreid@switchb.org) client-ip=97.107.130.119; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=[IPv6:::1]) by li60-119.members.linode.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OuYbI-0007OA-BK for lojban@googlegroups.com; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 22:31:12 +0000 Message-Id: <8B06025C-7DF2-4C4D-8336-07AAF1CC5C65@switchb.org> From: Kevin Reid To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <20100911215035.GG13937@digitalkingdom.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [lojban] Technical, Help Request: What information *should* a Lojban dictionary system have? Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 18:31:12 -0400 References: <20100911215035.GG13937@digitalkingdom.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-Original-Sender: kpreid@switchb.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 97.107.130.119 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of kpreid@switchb.org) smtp.mail=kpreid@switchb.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sep 11, 2010, at 17:50, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > What got this started is the realization that Lojban isn't English, > and that, in particular, the brivla definitions seem anti-Lojbanic. > When I see > > x1 gets/procures/acquires/obtains/accepts x2 from source x3 > > that kind of looks to me like a verb; I see the big thing in the > middle as being "the meaning" of "the verb". ... > In particular, it seemed to me that if you had the right kind of > information about the places, you could generate the sort of > definiton I pasted above automatically from that. I think this is a dangerous idea, and arguably less Lojbanic than the =20 current definition format. Lojban is not English; selbri places are not prepositions. The =20 definition of a selbri is the *RELATION* among *ALL* of the places, =20 not the combination of the meanings of individual places. Insofar as a =20 gismu, at least, can readily be described by describing each of its =20 places individually, it is incoherent and ought to be trimmed back. For example: sumji x1 is a mathematical sum/result/total of x2 plus/increased by x3 If you rewrite this definition in terms of the places x1 sum x2 summand #1/2 x3 summand #2/2 then this has *OBSCURED* the actual relationship, by omitting the =20 information about how x1 is related to x2 except implicitly. What would be an improvement in the area of "avoiding the verb" is =20 having the brivla definitions be given with each of the places as the =20 English subject; for example: spati x1 is a plant of species x2. x2 is the species of plant x1. (I've omitted the / words from the gismu list definition for brevity.) The latter (with the numbers changed) could also be used as a =20 definition of {selspati}, and that sort of thing does occur in =20 jbovlaste (for example, I wrote a definition for {tersmu} so that I =20 could index it under the English verb "understand"), but I think that =20 it would be better if a single brivla entry (especially for lujvo, =20 which are not as obviously sel-convertable) contained the =93English =20 verb=94 perspectives for *all* of its places. --=20 Kevin Reid --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.