From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEI7DsOQEGgTb1Wl9@googlegroups.com Sat Sep 11 17:41:01 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ouacr-0006OJ-3l; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:41:00 -0700 Received: by pvc7 with SMTP id 7sf329657pvc.16 for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:40:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AdBBTsIJ8K97STix9PwQT18We6JGNhiNV5jgCWmZ7hw=; b=oiHQd2kLiftGEcdOUQ079rQsgLFL63OsDMGlOTLaZZOiSWjNNzTvVcylf6+B3YYam3 b37p1qibt1gKnns8Z77PHKFNaOI+F95UE43A+ilQrC0oleulzBLxWVVW4vH/WcjzKzkW RHk2pnGfbeObfwjZBUYTp3NXXUShPjATmNSAs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding; b=EI2wxag/84QJQwkaglqoJND7VZ/bBdbc2QrWKvRTZbrsN0z92NgBwfmLidY60nPGij ifFEJAdbwUA45sqS+05Ezdua6tA5wwyK/gAQuIabZB881rqnAHHVCmp0GyJ8bamfxJKj FIFqjkH6G9NNFz8fQA7+qhYwrOgUnF+Kld6oo= Received: by 10.142.249.30 with SMTP id w30mr84190wfh.45.1284252046885; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.117.2 with SMTP id p2ls5144923wfc.1.p; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.173.7 with SMTP id v7mr586631wfe.41.1284252045918; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.173.7 with SMTP id v7mr586630wfe.41.1284252045890; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (chain.digitalkingdom.org [64.81.66.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id k9si5284684wfa.1.2010.09.11.17.40.45; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.81.66.169; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ouace-0006OE-Mc for lojban@googlegroups.com; Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:40:44 -0700 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 17:40:44 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Technical, Help Request: What information *should* a Lojban dictionary system have? Message-ID: <20100912004044.GK13937@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100911215035.GG13937@digitalkingdom.org> <8B06025C-7DF2-4C4D-8336-07AAF1CC5C65@switchb.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8B06025C-7DF2-4C4D-8336-07AAF1CC5C65@switchb.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 06:31:12PM -0400, Kevin Reid wrote: > On Sep 11, 2010, at 17:50, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >=20 > >What got this started is the realization that Lojban isn't > >English, and that, in particular, the brivla definitions seem > >anti-Lojbanic. When I see > > > > x1 gets/procures/acquires/obtains/accepts x2 from source x3 > > > >that kind of looks to me like a verb; I see the big thing in the > >middle as being "the meaning" of "the verb". > ... > >In particular, it seemed to me that if you had the right kind of > >information about the places, you could generate the sort of > >definiton I pasted above automatically from that. >=20 >=20 > I think this is a dangerous idea, and arguably less Lojbanic than > the current definition format. 'swhy I asked. :) > Lojban is not English; selbri places are not prepositions. The > definition of a selbri is the *RELATION* among *ALL* of the > places, not the combination of the meanings of individual places. Fair enough. What if there was detailed information about the places *and* something like what we now call gloss words? That is, words that describe the whole relationship? > What would be an improvement in the area of "avoiding the verb" is > having the brivla definitions be given with each of the places as > the English subject; for example: >=20 > spati > x1 is a plant of species x2. > x2 is the species of plant x1. >=20 > (I've omitted the / words from the gismu list definition for > brevity.) >=20 > The latter (with the numbers changed) could also be used as a > definition of {selspati}, and that sort of thing does occur in > jbovlaste (for example, I wrote a definition for {tersmu} so that > I could index it under the English verb "understand"), but I think > that it would be better if a single brivla entry (especially for > lujvo, which are not as obviously sel-convertable) contained the > =93English verb=94 perspectives for *all* of its places. That's a very interesting idea. Now, how would that look such that it was stored in a more machine-understandable way and not as actual strings of English text? It's the giant strings of English text thing that I most want to get away from; it's caused us nothing but trouble IME. -Roibn --=20 http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.