From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDUroDkBBoEklkl4Q@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 02 14:34:07 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OrHPt-0000Qc-6F; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:34:07 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf1433637gya.16 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:33:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :sender:received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xP1XZJR70VZKJioRgN7dwl9KBJpE/J0vdLP8AUx5hT8=; b=J43L7X+OaRqL/ZuyyjguT28QTUWqutJv8AjYvbFjYqyKQR6zyaS7KiWxjIGKqyWLo8 Dqt80gFtO9xLvg18iKqeiQEEAi6monMOXCP20Yl0unD1VI9LPHk+I3zQtJRdx33+hnQE yQkA8QmfgLLT9TCxPZgOqAwEnoEds1TyOBiX8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=n+XZaP+OxFJlJdeQK9yE5eFfY6TUTkiZLyTZOmLLR6y1pwxSiENSg8LHQIxX9662zI s2is2Jd/zCfXXi5EO8lEoobK9MLj5F/KfW55QybrvmuBGBEYE5k9K9k28EVH9wgANqpP tYZgK/QExyw4VbRtZHqHTIfBw7Zu+x3FG1fdA= Received: by 10.90.114.17 with SMTP id m17mr21762agc.48.1283462996690; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:29:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.130.13 with SMTP id h13ls392665ybn.2.p; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.142.4 with SMTP id u4mr27073ybn.35.1283462995848; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.188.199 with SMTP id db7mr338099vcb.6.1283462770222; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.188.199 with SMTP id db7mr338098vcb.6.1283462770178; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.216.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e23si104234vcs.2.2010.09.02.14.26.09; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.171; Received: by qyk30 with SMTP id 30so2801925qyk.16 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:26:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.47.4 with SMTP id l4mr7078021qaf.157.1283462765429; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.28.141 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:26:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 22:26:05 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Proposal for Katakana Lojban orthography. From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151750ea80374411048f4d769e --00151750ea80374411048f4d769e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some Japanese jbopre have attempted the Katakana transliteration for gismu and cmavo on the jbo-pon dictionary ( http://www.editgrid.com/explore/user/tijlan/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B8%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3%E8%BE%9E%E6%9B%B8) which i host on my EditGrid account. I myself am a Japanese speaker and have a good command of its orthography. Katakana, like Hiragana, is a syllabary, meaning that it's not cut out for representing single consonants. Every brivla has a consonant cluster, and no Katakana except { ン } [n] can adequately represent that. Cmavo, on the other hand, have no such cluster and can at least by principle be accommodated by a syllbary. More suited for brivla -- content words -- is Kanji, the logograms. For example: mi carna ミ 回 ta tricu cmana タ 木 山 Logograms, when you know them, are a great potential for speed reading. Katakana, however, has other difficulties in substituting for ASCII. It doesn't distinguish /r/ and /l/, for instance. As you've shown above, { ri } and { li } both become { リ }. { 'a } and { xa } become { ハ }. And so on. One workaround may be to use Hiragana for one of each pair. Say, { ri | り } (Hiragana) & { li | リ } (Katakana), and { 'a | は } (Hiragana} & { xa | ハ } (Katakana}. And certain syllables would have to be represented with two letters, such as { cu | シュ }, which is a combination of { シ } and { ュ }, which is the smaller of { ユ }. It can get quite complicated for non-natives. moklu gi'e pimlu 口 ギへ 羽 finpe vi lo rirxe midju 魚 ヴィ ろ 川 中 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00151750ea80374411048f4d769e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U29tZSBKYXBhbmVzZSBqYm9wcmUgaGF2ZSBhdHRlbXB0ZWQgdGhlIEthdGFrYW5hIHRyYW5zbGl0 ZXJhdGlvbiBmb3IgZ2lzbXUgYW5kIGNtYXZvIG9uIHRoZSBqYm8tcG9uIGRpY3Rpb25hcnkgKDxh IGhyZWY9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZWRpdGdyaWQuY29tL2V4cGxvcmUvdXNlci90aWpsYW4vJUUzJTgz JUFEJUUzJTgyJUI4JUUzJTgzJTkwJUUzJTgzJUIzJUU4JUJFJTlFJUU2JTlCJUI4Ij5odHRwOi8v d3d3LmVkaXRncmlkLmNvbS9leHBsb3JlL3VzZXIvdGlqbGFuLyVFMyU4MyVBRCVFMyU4MiVCOCVF MyU4MyU5MCVFMyU4MyVCMyVFOCVCRSU5RSVFNiU5QiVCODwvYT4pIHdoaWNoIGkgaG9zdCBvbiBt eSBFZGl0R3JpZCBhY2NvdW50Ljxicj4KPGJyPkkgbXlzZWxmIGFtIGEgSmFwYW5lc2Ugc3BlYWtl ciBhbmQgaGF2ZSBhIGdvb2QgY29tbWFuZCBvZiBpdHMgb3J0aG9ncmFwaHkuIEthdGFrYW5hLCBs aWtlIEhpcmFnYW5hLCBpcyBhIHN5bGxhYmFyeSwgbWVhbmluZyB0aGF0IGl0JiMzOTtzIG5vdCBj dXQgb3V0IGZvciByZXByZXNlbnRpbmcgc2luZ2xlIGNvbnNvbmFudHMuIEV2ZXJ5IGJyaXZsYSBo YXMgYSBjb25zb25hbnQgY2x1c3RlciwgYW5kIG5vIEthdGFrYW5hIGV4Y2VwdCB7IBskQiVzGyhC IH0gW25dIGNhbiBhZGVxdWF0ZWx5IHJlcHJlc2VudCB0aGF0LiBDbWF2bywgb24gdGhlIG90aGVy IGhhbmQsIGhhdmUgbm8gc3VjaCBjbHVzdGVyIGFuZCBjYW4gYXQgbGVhc3QgYnkgcHJpbmNpcGxl IGJlIGFjY29tbW9kYXRlZCBieSBhIHN5bGxiYXJ5LiBNb3JlIHN1aXRlZCBmb3IgYnJpdmxhIC0t IGNvbnRlbnQgd29yZHMgLS0gaXMgS2FuamksIHRoZSBsb2dvZ3JhbXMuIEZvciBleGFtcGxlOjxi cj4KPGJyPm1pIGNhcm5hPGJyPhskQiVfISEycxsoQjxicj48YnI+dGEgdHJpY3UgY21hbmE8YnI+ ChskQiU/ISFMWiEhOzMbKEI8YnI+PGJyPkxvZ29ncmFtcywgd2hlbiB5b3Uga25vdyB0aGVtLCBh cmUgYSBncmVhdCBwb3RlbnRpYWwgZm9yIHNwZWVkIHJlYWRpbmcuPGJyPjxicj5LYXRha2FuYSwg aG93ZXZlciwgaGFzIG90aGVyIGRpZmZpY3VsdGllcyBpbiBzdWJzdGl0dXRpbmcgZm9yIEFTQ0lJ LiBJdCBkb2VzbiYjMzk7dCBkaXN0aW5ndWlzaCAvci8gYW5kIC9sLywgZm9yIGluc3RhbmNlLiBB cyB5b3UmIzM5O3ZlIHNob3duIGFib3ZlLCB7IHJpIH0gYW5kIHsgbGkgfSBib3RoIGJlY29tZSB7 IBskQiVqGyhCIH0uIHsgJiMzOTthIH0gYW5kIHsgeGEgfSBiZWNvbWUgeyAbJEIlTxsoQiB9LiBB bmQgc28gb24uIE9uZSB3b3JrYXJvdW5kIG1heSBiZSB0byB1c2UgSGlyYWdhbmEgZm9yIG9uZSBv ZiBlYWNoIHBhaXIuIFNheSwgeyByaSB8IBskQiRqGyhCIH0gKEhpcmFnYW5hKSAmYW1wOyB7IGxp IHwgGyRCJWobKEIgfSAoS2F0YWthbmEpLCBhbmQgeyAmIzM5O2EgfCAbJEIkTxsoQiB9IChIaXJh Z2FuYX0gJmFtcDsgeyB4YSB8IBskQiVPGyhCIH0gKEthdGFrYW5hfS4gQW5kIGNlcnRhaW4gc3ls bGFibGVzIHdvdWxkIGhhdmUgdG8gYmUgcmVwcmVzZW50ZWQgd2l0aCB0d28gbGV0dGVycywgc3Vj aCBhcyB7IGN1IHwgGyRCJTclZRsoQiB9LCB3aGljaCBpcyBhIGNvbWJpbmF0aW9uIG9mIHsgGyRC JTcbKEIgfSBhbmQgeyAbJEIlZRsoQiB9LCB3aGljaCBpcyB0aGUgc21hbGxlciBvZiB7IBskQiVm GyhCIH0uIEl0IGNhbiBnZXQgcXVpdGUgY29tcGxpY2F0ZWQgZm9yIG5vbi1uYXRpdmVzLjxicj4K PGJyPm1va2x1IGdpJiMzOTtlIHBpbWx1PGJyPgobJEI4fSEhJS4kWCEhMSkbKEI8YnI+PGJyPmZp bnBlIHZpIGxvIHJpcnhlIG1pZGp1PGJyPhskQjV7ISEldCUjISEkbSEhQG4hIUNmGyhCPGJyPgoN CjxwPjwvcD4NCg0KLS0gPGJyIC8+CllvdSByZWNlaXZlZCB0aGlzIG1lc3NhZ2UgYmVjYXVzZSB5 b3UgYXJlIHN1YnNjcmliZWQgdG8gdGhlIEdvb2dsZSBHcm91cHMgImxvamJhbiIgZ3JvdXAuPGJy IC8+ClRvIHBvc3QgdG8gdGhpcyBncm91cCwgc2VuZCBlbWFpbCB0byBsb2piYW5AZ29vZ2xlZ3Jv dXBzLmNvbS48YnIgLz4KVG8gdW5zdWJzY3JpYmUgZnJvbSB0aGlzIGdyb3VwLCBzZW5kIGVtYWls IHRvIGxvamJhbit1bnN1YnNjcmliZUBnb29nbGVncm91cHMuY29tLjxiciAvPgoKRm9yIG1vcmUg b3B0aW9ucywgdmlzaXQgdGhpcyBncm91cCBhdCBodHRwOi8vZ3JvdXBzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20vZ3Jv dXAvbG9qYmFuP2hsPWVuLjxiciAvPgoKCg== --00151750ea80374411048f4d769e--