From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDZuIDkBBoEST8JOg@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 02 14:51:43 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OrHh3-0001Ca-6p; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:51:42 -0700 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf279873wyb.16 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:51:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=0Bg9uf0pXclk4xSZ6mU0uQl8/9C/pEnVwj+IhSP3Oaw=; b=VxZ5jXrRazB1SLqVl7vigItCM7APIoM/lHCz1Hh8OvaBMw7hMaJ6c9LozRohZ5Z+li wPJUqqOq4idH1rGakjoz+OUukXTIIa8/cctb8E5z8Y2PvwcK/0ZoswpjuFGrE1VWNmvJ aZ7osKyK47JezfAKcwETCuJLHfIYWG2EhMm1o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=fAfNEUXwyB+jy81BBEjXDTBgvKJueWg+eUpOM3lHvkASTssBnNsgtftEibmiYWY8Tm HHhMYd3Fqc2IxAaSfbaEXtGp2pd59HW1+OK+q1KYfQYkwBhAOOU05Y/grCWKMFj6Yj5x 3+5MuDSocF1/Fb1kKW+mC+Sayv/rjP21F8UUc= Received: by 10.216.145.90 with SMTP id o68mr2117756wej.23.1283464281968; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:51:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.26.159 with SMTP id c31ls59503eea.4.p; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.127.74 with SMTP id c50mr811401eei.6.1283464280657; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.127.74 with SMTP id c50mr811400eei.6.1283464280603; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f175.google.com (mail-ey0-f175.google.com [209.85.215.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id w43si999246eeh.3.2010.09.02.14.51.19; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.175; Received: by mail-ey0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 7so762779eyb.20 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:51:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.164.132 with SMTP id c4mr584819wel.9.1283464279256; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.46.4 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:51:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 15:51:19 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Proposal for Katakana Lojban orthography. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016367b5f207270d0048f4dd0fb --0016367b5f207270d0048f4dd0fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/9/2 tijlan > Some Japanese jbopre have attempted the Katakana transliteration for gism= u > and cmavo on the jbo-pon dictionary ( > http://www.editgrid.com/explore/user/tijlan/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B8%E3%83%90%E= 3%83%B3%E8%BE%9E%E6%9B%B8) > which i host on my EditGrid account. > > I myself am a Japanese speaker and have a good command of its orthography= . > Katakana, like Hiragana, is a syllabary, meaning that it's not cut out fo= r > representing single consonants. Every brivla has a consonant cluster, and= no > Katakana except { =E3=83=B3 } [n] can adequately represent that. Cmavo, o= n the other > hand, have no such cluster and can at least by principle be accommodated = by > a syllbary. More suited for brivla -- content words -- is Kanji, the > logograms. For example: > > mi carna > =E3=83=9F =E5=9B=9E > =E3=83=9F=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3=E3=83=AB=E3=83=8A > > ta tricu cmana > =E3=82=BF =E6=9C=A8 =E5=B1=B1 > =E3=82=BF=E3=83=84=E3=83=AA=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B7=E3=83=9E=E3=83=8A > > Logograms, when you know them, are a great potential for speed reading. > > Katakana, however, has other difficulties in substituting for ASCII. It > doesn't distinguish /r/ and /l/, for instance. As you've shown above, { r= i } > and { li } both become { =E3=83=AA }. { 'a } and { xa } become { =E3=83= =8F }. And so on. One > workaround may be to use Hiragana for one of each pair. Say, { ri | =E3= =82=8A } > (Hiragana) & { li | =E3=83=AA } (Katakana), and { 'a | =E3=81=AF } (Hirag= ana} & { xa | =E3=83=8F } > (Katakana}. And certain syllables would have to be represented with two > letters, such as { cu | =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5 }, which is a combination of {= =E3=82=B7 } and { =E3=83=A5 }, > which is the smaller of { =E3=83=A6 }. It can get quite complicated for n= on-natives. > I addressed these issues in the proposal. I'm going to assume since you b=3Dmentioned these issues and did not remark on my solution that you didn'= t actually read my proposal. > > moklu gi'e pimlu > =E5=8F=A3 =E3=82=AE=E3=81=B8 =E7=BE=BD > =E3=83=A2=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AB=E2=80=B3=E3=82=AE=E3=83=98=E3=83=94=E3=83=A0=E3= =83=AB=E2=80=B3 > > finpe vi lo rirxe midju > =E9=AD=9A =E3=83=B4=E3=82=A3 =E3=82=8D =E5=B7=9D =E4=B8=AD > =E3=83=95=E3=82=A4=E3=83=B3=E3=83=9A=E3=83=AF=E3=82=A4=E3=83=AD=E2=80=B3=E3= =83=AA=E3=83=AB=E3=82=B1=C2=BA=E3=83=9F=E3=83=85=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A6 Admittedly, not being a Japanese speaker, I wouldn't be able to assign kanj= i to all the jbovalsi. I chose katakana because it is used for foreign words, and while it is a syllabary, not an alphabet, with a little wrangling it ca= n be used. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016367b5f207270d0048f4dd0fb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2010/9/2 tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com>
Some Japanese jbopre have attempted the Katakana transliteration for gismu = and cmavo on the jbo-pon dictionary (http://www.editgrid.com/explore/user/tijlan/%E3%83%AD%E3%82= %B8%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3%E8%BE%9E%E6%9B%B8) which i host on my EditGrid ac= count.

I myself am a Japanese speaker and have a good command of its orthograp= hy. Katakana, like Hiragana, is a syllabary, meaning that it's not cut = out for representing single consonants. Every brivla has a consonant cluste= r, and no Katakana except { =E3=83=B3 } [n] can adequately represent that. = Cmavo, on the other hand, have no such cluster and can at least by principl= e be accommodated by a syllbary. More suited for brivla -- content words --= is Kanji, the logograms. For example:

mi carna
=E3=83=9F=E3=80=80=E5=9B=9E
=E3=83=9F= =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3=E3=83=AB=E3=83=8A

ta tricu cmana
=E3=82=BF=E3=80=80=E6=9C=A8=E3=80=80=E5=B1=B1
=E3=82= =BF=E3=83=84=E3=83=AA=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B7=E3=83=9E=E3=83=8A

Logograms, w= hen you know them, are a great potential for speed reading.

Katakana, however, has other difficulties in substituting for ASCII. It= doesn't distinguish /r/ and /l/, for instance. As you've shown abo= ve, { ri } and { li } both become { =E3=83=AA }. { 'a } and { xa } beco= me { =E3=83=8F }. And so on. One workaround may be to use Hiragana for one = of each pair. Say, { ri | =E3=82=8A } (Hiragana) & { li | =E3=83=AA } (= Katakana), and { 'a | =E3=81=AF } (Hiragana} & { xa | =E3=83=8F } (= Katakana}. And certain syllables would have to be represented with two lett= ers, such as { cu | =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5 }, which is a combination of { =E3= =82=B7 } and { =E3=83=A5 }, which is the smaller of { =E3=83=A6 }. It can g= et quite complicated for non-natives.

I addressed these issues in the proposal. I'm goi= ng to assume since you b=3Dmentioned these issues and did not remark on my = solution that you didn't actually read my proposal.

moklu gi'e pimlu
=E5=8F=A3=E3=80=80=E3=82=AE=E3=81=B8=E3=80=80=E7=BE=BD
=E3=83=A2=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AB=E2=80=B3=E3=82=AE=E3=83=98=E3=83=94=E3=83=A0= =E3=83=AB=E2=80=B3

finpe vi lo rirxe midju
=E9=AD=9A=E3=80=80=E3=83=B4=E3=82= =A3=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E5=B7=9D=E3=80=80=E4=B8=AD
=E3=83=95=E3=82=A4=E3=83=B3=E3=83=9A=E3=83=AF=E3=82=A4=E3= =83=AD=E2=80=B3=E3=83=AA=E3=83=AB=E3=82=B1=C2=BA=E3=83=9F=E3=83=85=E3=82=B8= =E3=82=A6

Admittedly, not being a Japanese speaker, I wouldn't b= e able to assign kanji to all the jbovalsi. I chose katakana because it is = used for foreign words, and while it is a syllabary, not an alphabet, with = a little wrangling it can be used.

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

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