From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDd6rTkBBoE1TXepQ@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 12 13:17:50 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ouszi-00066U-9n; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:17:50 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf869818wwe.16 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:17:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HHc6Iz36i2cH6wnSyu5tI/woHnLN0bnjuoWgRIrIzBw=; b=3CR4ZGPjth76+5CMSHUfspVNpNdhsNg4KBuyjGkWeX9u6V/oarNiaRRyNEkfS4S+Ny sF2S11xxMG/jpqpkRNSVfS7C2Qma7OtJDqjJU6H1mLOqQOtQWr2NZvO/5lS7JdSCDEQ6 3U+gnKnZwvveMVN6DOhCz3ln1k1rAgDH6KBJ8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QNmkuwoW7Smk1IaZ/H0/qqr0Znne9zQiocabZfoc4EJ0kxVwCjOqA+Zj0jXf19XIcw NbWALyMMK3dIQyMCo+2s1P/Naj8Dudo2QOGHTpiorKr7vTYDuwKIJSENxY6YJ+AdOV0g KL1Yz09rNtwgwGCe5ZzPqyl111+IFXXkf6N+c= Received: by 10.216.144.38 with SMTP id m38mr373097wej.29.1284322653784; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:17:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.237.134 with SMTP id y6ls4107704weq.2.p; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.3.1 with SMTP id 1mr80626weg.1.1284322652440; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.3.1 with SMTP id 1mr80625weg.1.1284322652419; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f43.google.com (mail-ww0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v4si1804064weq.1.2010.09.12.13.17.31; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.43; Received: by wwi14 with SMTP id 14so6431997wwi.0 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:17:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.156.202 with SMTP id y10mr2189608wbw.48.1284322651200; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.151.203 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:17:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 17:17:31 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] other-centric UI From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Does it seem like a reasonable translation of "what do you want to do" to > say {.aidai zukte ma}. =A0I dislike how lojban sometimes seems like it ha= s to > be this verbose thing with bridi like {do djica lo nu zukte ma}. =A0It se= ems > like UI could be very useful and I'd like to apply it to more of my usage= , > but so often I want to talk about other's feelings and it seems like this > was overlooked in the design. For questions there's "pei": ".aipei do zukte ma" > For instance, is it possible to use a UI to say something like "(speaking= to > child) wow, you did good. =A0You're parents must be proud". =A0This secon= d > sentence just wreaks of UI but I can't figure out how to say {ju'o .o'a -= > > lo rirni be do}. =A0Is it even possible? =A0I know of {dai} and {se'inai}= but > those are just generic "other" and even they don't really feel like they'= re > actually being applied to a specific other person (other being not myself > nor {do}). "se'inai" is not about the feelings of some other. It's about the speaker's feelings towards someone or something other: iose'i self-respect iose'inai respect for something or someone else In both cases it is the speaker who expresses respect. iuse'i self-love iuse'inai love for something or someone else In both cases it is the speaker that expresses love. .oise'i complaint about self/directed at self .oise'inai complaint about something else/directed at someone else In both cases it is the speaker that complains. "dai" is for expressing empathy, which is what would fit for the child case= : .i'e .o'adai Approval! Aren't we proud? Why should it be the parents rather than the child that are proud if it's the child who did good? Even if you are (indirectly) talking to the parents, "o'adai" would still work, as in "aren't we proud of that child?" In general you can't really feel an emotion for someone else, so the most that you can do is express it in a kind of resonance. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.