From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDe8rTkBBoEQ2Cw5Q@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 12 13:35:10 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OutGF-00012d-8e; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:35:10 -0700 Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17sf627718fxm.16 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:34:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xFuTfL8yhCkL0bvh7LXd5n28C2wOIo4kfo4mNSf+Y9g=; b=g8v1Oxkjhg3EVpc3rGNVy1XFjyA/kfUjq+xGaMAXbJC39vbbXVzZPDBGBTDzJbJCaP yHKv3Eoe6Y1RFuw0ssS2JIUV9Xxui/vau7jEgC1cdBEt3jC7BaC9UYTsVyPntUO0jIGF yjJMe75AWTOGcXjYNMUUXQCuEJi1kp/4xd3Do= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=rscinyHZLdppYX5Dk0BgwkPn/zZ5VEK/76Z8h+Bf1hEf3/DFHH5NOT8kDDUBi5si2j L5DPNFU76ZNOpaU6vk6WBfMxp7JJpaSH0XrjXtIezeZYuCRbyPkIOEMNOywkG6TRlz+9 p1ljSbc67caMjlusKhTEE7GXHE3MqU7D5Jf3U= Received: by 10.223.91.139 with SMTP id n11mr87994fam.20.1284323678476; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:34:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.59.212 with SMTP id m20ls2394173fah.3.p; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.117.13 with SMTP id o13mr161318faq.10.1284323677286; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.117.13 with SMTP id o13mr161317faq.10.1284323677239; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f42.google.com (mail-bw0-f42.google.com [209.85.214.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p28si1458224fak.9.2010.09.12.13.34.36; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.42; Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so4487956bwz.29 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:34:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.115.3 with SMTP id g3mr2552233bkq.141.1284323675927; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.98.71 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 13:34:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 16:34:35 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] other-centric UI From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a4f77af657049015e829 --001636c5a4f77af657049015e829 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hmm. I guess at best I could say something like {ba'a lo do rirni cu jigra}. And I meant {.o'a} in the sense of "your parents must be proud of {tu'a do}" 2010/9/12 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > Does it seem like a reasonable translation of "what do you want to do" = to > > say {.aidai zukte ma}. I dislike how lojban sometimes seems like it ha= s > to > > be this verbose thing with bridi like {do djica lo nu zukte ma}. It > seems > > like UI could be very useful and I'd like to apply it to more of my > usage, > > but so often I want to talk about other's feelings and it seems like th= is > > was overlooked in the design. > > For questions there's "pei": ".aipei do zukte ma" > > > For instance, is it possible to use a UI to say something like "(speaki= ng > to > > child) wow, you did good. You're parents must be proud". This second > > sentence just wreaks of UI but I can't figure out how to say {ju'o .o'a > -> > > lo rirni be do}. Is it even possible? I know of {dai} and {se'inai} b= ut > > those are just generic "other" and even they don't really feel like > they're > > actually being applied to a specific other person (other being not myse= lf > > nor {do}). > > "se'inai" is not about the feelings of some other. It's about the > speaker's feelings towards someone or something other: > > iose'i self-respect > iose'inai respect for something or someone else > > In both cases it is the speaker who expresses respect. > > iuse'i self-love > iuse'inai love for something or someone else > > In both cases it is the speaker that expresses love. > > .oise'i complaint about self/directed at self > .oise'inai complaint about something else/directed at someone else > > In both cases it is the speaker that complains. > > "dai" is for expressing empathy, which is what would fit for the child > case: > > .i'e .o'adai > Approval! Aren't we proud? > > Why should it be the parents rather than the child that are proud if > it's the child who did good? Even if you are (indirectly) talking to > the parents, "o'adai" would still work, as in "aren't we proud of that > child?" > > In general you can't really feel an emotion for someone else, so the > most that you can do is express it in a kind of resonance. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636c5a4f77af657049015e829 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hmm. =A0I guess at best I could say something like {ba'a lo do rirni cu= jigra}. =A0And I meant {.o'a} in the sense of "your parents must = be proud of {tu'a do}"

2010/9/12= Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 4= :46 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeaberge= n@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does it seem like a reasonable translation of "what do you want t= o do" to
> say {.aidai zukte ma}. =A0I dislike how lojban sometimes seems like it= has to
> be this verbose thing with bridi like {do djica lo nu zukte ma}. =A0It= seems
> like UI could be very useful and I'd like to apply it to more of m= y usage,
> but so often I want to talk about other's feelings and it seems li= ke this
> was overlooked in the design.

For questions there's "pei": ".aipei do zukte ma&q= uot;

> For instance, is it possible to use a UI to say something like "(= speaking to
> child) wow, you did good. =A0You're parents must be proud". = =A0This second
> sentence just wreaks of UI but I can't figure out how to say {ju&#= 39;o .o'a ->
> lo rirni be do}. =A0Is it even possible? =A0I know of {dai} and {se= 9;inai} but
> those are just generic "other" and even they don't reall= y feel like they're
> actually being applied to a specific other person (other being not mys= elf
> nor {do}).

"se'inai" is not about the feelings of some other. It&#= 39;s about the
speaker's feelings towards someone or something other:

iose'i =A0self-respect
iose'inai =A0respect for something or someone else

In both cases it is the speaker who expresses respect.

iuse'i self-love
iuse'inai =A0love for something or someone else

In both cases it is the speaker that expresses love.

.oise'i complaint about self/directed at self
.oise'inai complaint about something else/directed at someone else

In both cases it is the speaker that complains.

"dai" is for expressing empathy, which is what would fit for the = child case:

.i'e .o'adai
Approval! Aren't we proud?

Why should it be the parents rather than the child that are proud if
it's the child who did good? Even if you are (indirectly) talking to the parents, "o'adai" would still work, as in "aren'= t we proud of that
child?"

In general you can't really feel an emotion for someone else, so the most that you can do is express it in a kind of resonance.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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