From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCfoLbkBBoET9kdoA@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 12 19:45:05 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ouz2S-0001S7-3v; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:45:04 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf3705895gwb.16 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:44:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=JzKtk9GIvE0DUf2H1Cf6DWbJHTbEviQSxW8hLwBXuIw=; b=uqb+AaaPWk9l8UeBz+DCwDIoWrObhxyGqto731PKzdNU3IDcQcBK+X8Z3hc98Jp1SJ 0dmnGyWF+0Ir5+SCQ4hI1gI2e8umO0rADZ83Z9FTobaVrl5VLTdWye4yOp/hLX+50i3x ZWK4HH/lXTIg+kn8GbsznnmKxjZc/gStYP/AU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=yhW26eylKS5GkNnLQYlz/oRNrO1/Cg4db30t+6RErE17euTbW/E0gGrJ7kaeMNbOzE g4fdzyP0Uj9nRs//eq/lK4imrDKRIkbFfNnu5bIPxoNH/xHlCxV3/EqWferhvgjzmyeO Clyl+Dirl7qtceFL+iWa4JUWkaXag1t8tXO5Q= Received: by 10.91.16.10 with SMTP id t10mr345919agi.9.1284345887957; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:44:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.17.13 with SMTP id 13ls3879749ybq.3.p; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.136.4 with SMTP id j4mr1012634ybd.19.1284345887297; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.136.4 with SMTP id j4mr1012633ybd.19.1284345887272; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id v6si3598803ybe.8.2010.09.12.19.44.46; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 40392 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Sep 2010 02:44:45 -0000 Message-ID: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: C1Ic9DQVM1m0jukIz5wqiHfPlps1M6DSp50y2YljpRozqGb e82w8_p8LXhFgp6HgpoVcxqGBqSJ1b28RbrmaPR1GXV_uYOQ1iF8lTdg3cK4 V5tr4PCQgT0Dr7LyopHbxGNv6NarPdmIC_suMj4S63W47cGQHuP9bjwzML.C CYUEzkKAhUuRUsgQ_2L4Ahqzo0HzIIKPLVTNg0CJnbwcMHkNYRuxXCtGGIfQ OzAi6FgsGku_oCb.U90gF3o8J8wiEHL0XqIK_GqrLYkBkuJCKPdwYxBtKL5b NsRrxiysHZfRYr1i7_W.SePhG6zkeYYcWsc2lj7IJZRUNZMOiXeLuQKfh9J7 xpnJsG93TnjyUiB1KYNqvxd0W9sOUrWQ- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:44:45 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:44:45 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, it depends (as I first wrote on this issue in 1976) on what "I intend to dance" means. If it is, for example, false if I really have no such intention, the "ai" is totally inappropriate. If it *expresses* your intention (whether you have one or not) , it is not truth functional at all, but only carried out or not. Now, the difference is hard to tell sometimes (why would one express an intention one did not have? -- perhaps to urge him toward that intention, etc,) , but, in what ever vestigial sense Lojban is still a logical language, the difference is crucial. Of course, unmarked bridi can be untrue -- else how could one lie -- or write fiction (which come to the same thing, after all) But they can't be counterfactual (which is a very different matter, logically), since that takes us out of present contexts into contexts generated verbally as we go along (this is eventually gets into the opaque contexts which are at the root of the problems with xorlo -- as expounded the last time xorxes deigned to give something approaching a serious explanation; it may totally different now, as that one was from the time before). Fiction, of course, creates its own context, which may be radically different from the "real world" or "common world" where we start, but that context is holistic, where as counterfactual are incidental. A story that was all counterfactual would never get told, since the context never emerged. So, of course, you don't use counterfactual flags throughout a story, no matter how different its context is from the here and now. ----- Original Message ---- From: Stela Selckiku To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, September 12, 2010 9:25:16 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Lindar wrote: > > {.i .ai mi dansu} does NOT mean "I intend to dance." That's exactly what it means. I use {.ai} in that sense like a dozen times a day. I'll repeat what I've said before in response to the argument that unmarked bridi cannot be counterfactual or untrue: You're going to get very tired of saying {da'i} or {je'u nai} if you ever try to write a piece of fiction. :P mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.