From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBD7prbkBBoE_snhZA@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 12 19:59:26 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OuzGK-0001tJ-Q0; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:59:26 -0700 Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17sf664163fxm.16 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:59:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Y8nx3iyV39oc8BAd6Cvk1sBvS/h3fWYGjBy0yK3Ow/o=; b=w/UAv9X8tHz+xlJEtf245upPnwO07ycO3olMW15b61z+OXqdGQmovkkyvLa+4sxGjx ObyhbB9fg0CxiSzdLH/Djuo5Af04WnSYzRTlKILoxVB6DKxqTDZg+/trKlYhUJFkLmgP k68a/EVKqV1PRZJfyEVat9doQhYapgNuyNR3I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=nXPZhe8YPqd4+FvG1E9nAi4wOFHps6P+0PPhZXlEZk4sUWA6YRS1L8MAfev/QO9QLU v64CprApT3nauPqubeBJ+8ZzAQUzDBEDTf0H+QPNFVhwjVUoFOgangE7OdOZg1DhCt8q qRVqL2rUye86rKFmNuXmOgYrrXPYpY/GxyAuU= Received: by 10.223.94.130 with SMTP id z2mr96258fam.27.1284346747629; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:59:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.26.6 with SMTP id b6ls2432831fac.1.p; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.109.83 with SMTP id i19mr198826fap.15.1284346746806; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.109.83 with SMTP id i19mr198825fap.15.1284346746762; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f49.google.com (mail-bw0-f49.google.com [209.85.214.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y11si1545293faj.2.2010.09.12.19.59.05; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.49; Received: by mail-bw0-f49.google.com with SMTP id 13so5426203bwz.36 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:59:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.63.211 with SMTP id c19mr1063957bki.133.1284346745480; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.98.71 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 19:59:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:59:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e1ecff8865f804901b475a --001636e1ecff8865f804901b475a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 lindar, I couldn't disagree more. From the CLL: .... actually, just all of chapter 13 section 3. [snip] 3.3) .ai mi benji do le ckana [intent] I transfer you to-the bed. I'm putting you to bed. [/snip] So either this is a bug in CLL that needs to be fixed next time there is a re-print or UI can have propositional meaning. On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:44 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Well, it depends (as I first wrote on this issue in 1976) on what "I intend > to > dance" means. If it is, for example, false if I really have no such > intention, > the "ai" is totally inappropriate. If it *expresses* your intention > (whether > you have one or not) , it is not truth functional at all, but only carried > out > or not. Now, the difference is hard to tell sometimes (why would one > express an > intention one did not have? -- perhaps to urge him toward that intention, > etc,) > , but, in what ever vestigial sense Lojban is still a logical language, the > difference is crucial. Of course, unmarked bridi can be untrue -- else how > could one lie -- or write fiction (which come to the same thing, after all) > But > they can't be counterfactual (which is a very different matter, logically), > since that takes us out of present contexts into contexts generated > verbally as > we go along (this is eventually gets into the opaque contexts which are at > the > root of the problems with xorlo -- as expounded the last time xorxes > deigned to > give something approaching a serious explanation; it may totally different > now, > as that one was from the time before). Fiction, of course, creates its own > context, which may be radically different from the "real world" or "common > world" where we start, but that context is holistic, where as > counterfactual are > incidental. A story that was all counterfactual would never get told, > since the > context never emerged. So, of course, you don't use counterfactual flags > throughout a story, no matter how different its context is from the here > and > now. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Stela Selckiku > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sun, September 12, 2010 9:25:16 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Lindar wrote: > > > > {.i .ai mi dansu} does NOT mean "I intend to dance." > > That's exactly what it means. I use {.ai} in that sense like a dozen > times a day. > > I'll repeat what I've said before in response to the argument that > unmarked bridi cannot be counterfactual or untrue: You're going to get > very tired of saying {da'i} or {je'u nai} if you ever try to write a > piece of fiction. :P > > mi'e la stela selckiku > mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001636e1ecff8865f804901b475a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable lindar, I couldn't disagree more. =A0

From the CLL:<= /div>

.... actually, just all of chapter 13 section 3.

[snip]
3.3)  .ai mi benji do le ckana
    [intent] I transfer you to-the bed.
    I'm putting you to bed.
[/snip]
So either this =
is a bug in CLL that needs to be fixed next time there is a re-print or UI =
can have propositional meaning.

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 10:44 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wr= ote:
Well, it depends (as I first wrote on this issue in 1976) on what "I i= ntend to
dance" means. =A0If it is, for example, false if I really have no such= intention,
the "ai" is totally inappropriate. =A0If it *expresses* your inte= ntion (whether
you have one or not) , it is not truth functional at all, but only carried = out
or not. =A0Now, the difference is hard to tell sometimes (why would one exp= ress an
intention one did not have? -- perhaps to urge him toward that intention, e= tc,)
, but, in what ever vestigial sense Lojban is still a logical language, the=
difference is crucial. =A0Of course, unmarked bridi can be untrue -- else h= ow
could one lie -- or write fiction (which come to the same thing, after all)= =A0But
they can't be counterfactual (which is a very different matter, logical= ly),
since that takes us out of present contexts into contexts generated verball= y as
we go along (this is eventually gets into the opaque contexts which are at = the
root of the problems with xorlo -- as expounded the last time xorxes deigne= d to
give something approaching a serious explanation; it may totally different = now,
as that one was from the time before). =A0Fiction, of course, creates its o= wn
context, which may be radically different from the "real world" o= r "common
world" where we start, but that context is holistic, where as counterf= actual are
incidental. =A0A story that was all counterfactual would never get told, si= nce the
context never emerged. =A0So, of course, you don't use counterfactual f= lags
throughout a story, no matter how different its context is from the here an= d
now.


----- Original Message ----
From: Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gma= il.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com<= br> Sent: Sun, September 12, 2010 9:25:16 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> {.i .ai mi dansu} does NOT mean "I intend to dance."

That's exactly what it means. =A0I use {.ai} in that sense like a dozen=
times a day.

I'll repeat what I've said before in response to the argument that<= br> unmarked bridi cannot be counterfactual or untrue: You're going to get<= br> very tired of saying {da'i} or {je'u nai} if you ever try to write = a
piece of fiction. :P

mi'e la stela selckiku
mu'o

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