From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCF-4DkBBoEvV4zhg@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 02 17:13:13 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OrJu1-0004bi-50; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:13:13 -0700 Received: by wwf26 with SMTP id 26sf328756wwf.16 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:13:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Cjw5EXhMYJR7J+ldtzD7Dy8HirU1eT/pDnRmcqd0/tA=; b=1HFi+2ourI/1wH/RUgl2efi3K94/O+1NN9Z/R+dCq2tFX2PGNQ665LKISa3rWThORz /uZGg3qs0Sz7eQEPGw/YePsCBsvnIJ4lNK1TQs3X56kQaZAb9kCSUzMifbQXPpOv8mJD M0VCtBsrkn20/1lH7S4kFWR2fawuTOe2scNJw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=KpPjATJ3W3C28tPt9b6GkWK9/fcKgVzqppfXr+FKMsFfG2QU4qeWlXF/0QEfqwO+L/ ms8oCOMAJPXhhT1cREjkGU2ohZHt0TD+aTYSpo6VTKbO8V8oCAwKglCPNU6gW5d8LgFu Nf61WTjgqq7hMQCXZNRwVMGZcgo/ApwmwPERQ= Received: by 10.216.144.67 with SMTP id m45mr2134883wej.2.1283472773800; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:12:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.41.160 with SMTP id h32ls63057eeb.5.p; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.127.75 with SMTP id c51mr818371eei.10.1283472772856; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.127.75 with SMTP id c51mr818370eei.10.1283472772798; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f181.google.com (mail-ey0-f181.google.com [209.85.215.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b5si1126323eei.4.2010.09.02.17.12.51; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.181; Received: by eyf6 with SMTP id 6so742855eyf.26 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:12:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.187.130 with SMTP id y2mr325822wem.60.1283472760225; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.46.4 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Sep 2010 17:12:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 18:12:40 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Proposal for Katakana Lojban orthography. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016367fb81bf3bec4048f4fc9ab --0016367fb81bf3bec4048f4fc9ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 3:49 PM, tijlan wrote: > On 2 September 2010 20:00, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> =EF=BD=BC is pronounced {cy.}, and followed by a vowel or 'y' kana, as = in cusku: >> =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A6=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF=E3=82=A6 or =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3= =82=B9=E3=82=AF=E3=82=A6. >> > > The latter one should be =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF (without = =E3=82=A6 at the end). > All the "Cu" kana are pronounced without the 'u' bit, as =E3=81=A7=E3=81=99= is pronounced 'des', in the proposal. As such, the =E3=82=A6 has to be there. Otherwise, = how would you know that =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF is pronounced {cusku} an= d not {cusuku}? > > To write {si}, use =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A4. >> > To write {zi}, use =E3=82=BA=E3=82=A4. >> > > > =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A4 is more like {sui}. I suggest =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A3. Like= wise, =E3=82=BA=E3=82=A3 for {zi}. > See above, although the subscript =E3=82=A4 is basically the same thing, as= far as I'm concerned. (It does look a bit better.) > > > =E3=82=B8 is pronounced {jy.} and follows the same rules as =E3=82=B7, a= s in djica: =E3=83=85=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A4=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3 >> . >> > > or =E3=83=82=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3. {tci} can unambiguously be =E3=83=81, and= {dji} =E3=83=82. > It has to be that =E3=83=82 is {di}, =E3=83=81 is {ti}, and {tci} is =E3= =83=84=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4, or it would break the rest of the proposal. For example: Is =E3=83=82=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AB=E2=80=B3 {diklu} or {djiklu}? > > > =E3=83=B2is pronounced {.y.} >> > To write {y'u}, use =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6. >> > > =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 is most probably {xau} or {'au}. > > {'u} is tricky. It would have to be distinguishable from {fu} and {xu}, a= nd > both Katakana and Hiragana have none for {'u} and {xu}. =E3=83=95 is actu= ally {fu}, > but you have assigned it to {fy}. > Because only =E3=83=95 is pronounced with the {fy.} sound, it is {fy.}. So,= {fa}, {fi}, {fu},{fe}, {fo} are =E3=83=95=E3=82=A2, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A4, =E3=83=95= =E3=82=A6, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A8, =E3=83=95=E3=82=AA. Since this means there i= s no 'hu', I decided on using =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 to mean that. Doing a subscript= =E3=82=A6 would be preferable. I considered =E3=83=92=E3=82=A6, =E3=83=98=E3=82=A6, and =E3=83= =9B=E3=82=A6 as well, and =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 just looks the best to me. I also considered making =E3=83=98 be {y'y} instead of {y'e}, which = would mean that =E3=83=8F, =E3=83=92, and =E3=83=9B aren't used at all. > > > =E3=83=AF is pronounced {vy.}, and followed by a vowel, as in vu: =E3=83= =AF=E3=82=A6. >> > > =E3=83=AF is actually {ua}. =E3=83=AF=E3=82=A6 is {uau}. > > The foreign {v} sound in Japanese is typically transliterated as =E3=83= =B4, as in > =E3=83=A9=E3=83=B4 for "love". > I didn't know that. I also have no idea how to make that symbol with a standard U.S. keyboard, so.... The reason I chose =E3=83=AF for {vy.} is because we have =E3=82=A6=E3=82= =A2, so =E3=83=AF isn't needed for it. The =E3=82=A6" works for me. > > > The 'k' kana with =C2=BA is pronounced {xy.} as in xrula: =E3=82=AF=C2= =BA=E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6=E3=83=A9=E2=80=B3=E3=82=A2. > > > That's an interesting idea. =E3=82=9C for a non-labial is never used in f= ormal > Japanese. It looks funny to the natives, so it sometimes gets used in man= ga > for comical expressions. > {xy.} and {ky.} are closely related, and =E3=82=AC, etc. are already used f= or {gV}, so that was my best idea. I know that's not what the maru symbolizes. (It i= s called maru, yes?) --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016367fb81bf3bec4048f4fc9ab Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 3:49 PM, tijlan <= span dir=3D"ltr"><jbotijlan@gmail= .com> wrote:
On 2 September 2010 20:00, Jon= athan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BD=BC <= /span>is pronounced {cy.}, and followed by a vowel or 'y' kana, as in cusku: =E3= =82=B7=E3=82=A6=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF=E3=82=A6 or =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF=E3=82=A6= .


= The latter one should be =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF (without =E3= =82=A6 at the end).

All the "Cu" kana are pronounced with= out the 'u' bit, as =E3=81=A7=E3=81=99 is pronounced 'des',= in the proposal. As such, the =E3=82=A6 has to be there. Otherwise, how wo= uld you know that =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF is pronounced {cusku= } and not {cusuku}?

To write {si}, use =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A4.

To write {zi}, use =E3=82=BA=E3=82=A4.



=E3=82=B9=E3=82=A4 is more like {sui}. I suggest =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A3. Li= kewise, =E3=82=BA=E3=82=A3 for {zi}.

S= ee above, although the subscript =E3=82=A4 is basically the same thing, as = far as I'm concerned. (It does look a bit better.)


=E3=82=B8 <= /span>is pronounced {jy.} and follows the same rules as =E3=82=B7, as in djica: =E3=83=85=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A4=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3.


or =E3=83=82=E3=82= =B7=E3=83=A3. {tci} can unambiguously be =E3=83=81, and {dji} =E3=83=82.

It has to be that =E3=83=82 is=C2=A0 {di}, =E3=83=81 = is {ti}, and {tci} is =E3=83=84=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4, or it would break the re= st of the proposal.

For example: Is =E3=83=82=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AB=E2= =80=B3 {diklu} or {djiklu}?


=E3=83=B2is pronounced {.y.}

To write {y'u}, use =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6.<= /p>


=E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 is most probably {xau} or= {'au}.

{'u} is tricky. It would have to be distinguishable = from {fu} and {xu}, and both Katakana and Hiragana have none for {'u} a= nd {xu}. =E3=83=95 is actually {fu}, but you have assigned it to {fy}.
=C2=A0
Because only =E3=83=95 is pr= onounced with the {fy.} sound, it is {fy.}. So, {fa}, {fi}, {fu},{fe}, {fo}= are =E3=83=95=E3=82=A2, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A4, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A6, =E3=83=95= =E3=82=A8, =E3=83=95=E3=82=AA. Since this means there is no 'hu', I= decided on using =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 to mean that. Doing a subscript =E3=82= =A6 would be preferable. I considered =E3=83=92=E3=82=A6, =E3=83=98=E3=82= =A6, and =E3=83=9B=E3=82=A6 as well, and =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 just looks the = best to me. I also considered making =E3=83=98 be {y'y} instead of {y&#= 39;e}, which would mean that =E3=83=8F, =E3=83=92, and =E3=83=9B aren't= used at all.
=C2=A0

=E3=83=AF <= /span>is pronounced {vy.}, and followed by a vowel, as in vu: =E3=83=AF=E3=82=A6<= /font>.


=E3=83=AF is= actually {ua}. =E3=83=AF=E3=82=A6 is {uau}.

The foreign {v} sound in Japanese is typically transliterated as =E3=83=B4,= as in =E3=83=A9=E3=83=B4 for "love".

I didn't know that. I also have no idea how to make that symb= ol with a standard U.S. keyboard, so....

The reason I chose =E3=83=AF for {vy.} is because we have =E3=82=A6=E3= =82=A2, so =E3=83=AF isn't needed for it. The =E3=82=A6" works for= me.


The 'k' kana with =C2=BA is pronounced {xy.} as in= xrula: =E3=82=AF=C2=BA=E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6=E3=83=A9=E2=80=B3=E3=82=A2.


That's an i= nteresting idea. =E3=82=9C for a non-labial is never used in formal Japanes= e. It looks funny to the natives, so it sometimes gets used in manga for co= mical expressions.

{xy.} and {ky.} are closely= related, and =E3=82=AC, etc. are already used for {gV}, so that was my bes= t idea. I know that's not what the maru symbolizes. (It is called maru,= yes?)

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e= ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

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