From lojban+bncCICntNPQBRDJw7bkBBoEPiquDg@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 12 21:00:25 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ov0DN-00064Q-8U; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:00:25 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf3700043gya.16 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:00:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:mime-version :received:received:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Re1vOhrvQF0kMFRpLykIaLxhmSsep+OSCK6VTrUs6w4=; b=zxMOBOE4yGg/3zSPa8fV+KlR8FdEKQDim7Zi4DO95sQWGUgt8zkZsjVfLcawbb/cuI OY98iGX5G29pyGCCXE3uem32KGfoYSNzBuuV9PYz8n+Qk4TSQXhVnVul6S438YTYX3de dFkbThoTOcLxo/Z1dBJVqB3AQ+aV1XoGEbSZU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Cv/4V1EyzABv7spZRofZfYYsWdVoRhgEFnym95rDKwPp4/x9eBTW9s48lLt8fCrP9d UT8DfWWtl+wzSBVdvb4R3hOMKk27lvf95GnBGMdb4oojya2FM3Dn4ysLbKRgVoxdUVRV xLv9WoLBNVymAekbNcULVT/jO1dzrrQfL9fgc= Received: by 10.101.131.33 with SMTP id i33mr98205ann.23.1284350409122; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:00:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.194.29 with SMTP id w29ls3829786anp.1.p; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:00:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.63.16 with SMTP id q16mr97220ank.67.1284350408400; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by n19g2000prf.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:00:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 166.191.199.15 References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100825 Ubuntu/10.04 (lucid) Firefox/3.6.9,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI From: Lindar To: lojban X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > So either this is a bug in CLL that needs to be fixed next time there > is a re-print or UI can have propositional meaning. It's kind of a bug in the language. One can't ask a question without UI being able to completely change the meaning of a sentence, but then that destroys half of the language because {.i e'u do dansu} apparently means "I suggest you dance." according to CLL. If that's the case, what the hell is the point of having a word like stidi? What's the point of having any words? Why not just have all emoticraps and sumti and not have a real language? (sorry, nerdrage) My point is that the CLL claims {.i .e'u do dansu} means "I suggest you dance." and I say that (that is absolutely stupid, and) it means, "You dance." and the speaker feels suggestive. What should -really- be said is {.i .e'u ko dansu}, which comes off to me like a softening of ko so it doesn't sound so demanding. It sounds like, "You should dance.". Now what the Lojban -should- be is {.i mi stidi lo nu do dansu} because that -actually means- "I suggest you dance.". I will definitely admit that {.i .ai mi klama} could be read with an implicit ba in there, but the UI in of itself doesn't affect the meaning as much as you would like. HOWEVER!! Devil's advocate time! If UI -doesn't- change the meaning of bridi like it suggests in CLL, then the meaning of {xu} is completely lost. Instead of asking a question, we're making uncertain assertions. {.i xu do dansu} is no longer "Are you dancing?" or "Do you dance?" or "Are you a dancer?" but "You dance." and you feel incorrect or uncertain about your statement. So we could either find some happy medium, I could be wrong about the whole mess and then be a whiny emo brat and quit because I disagree with everyone and don't want to speak a retarded language wherein UI actually changes the meaning of a bridi instead of expressing one's feelings (giant zo'o here if you didn't catch that =P), or we could create a word like ma/mo for bridi/jufra. I haven't a clue what to do, I just know that I disagree. =D -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.