From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCp0LbkBBoEBXPekQ@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 12 21:27:40 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ov0di-0000Kj-4z; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:27:40 -0700 Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17sf669483fxm.16 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:27:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Z0WrEhMjkPqlKQG/e2MopNDhVfoDBrBy7/QUOfZ5CIQ=; b=y3hvGostKkcJyuffDu/oG9+h9mY2pBCuFePvbpiYXEQvSeXhERu+qf4Q7OPZgiYBot V8Xrniq5drkCOTk8+j1AoZq/eVjJ9S+NuscFPMmA85QnHQLHgqxgaKZ29cHFn3vu/cCr qSm6J8B3fgNiwF6G3x9TjPTqUKzlQZMnQV1rw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=UhCANOZ1N+FWPApUIPRfVUl/b7V+W27G08PZ4XVVsSBh5WR5QQoH3j89D8G/LMb3kJ hBFisopusb0ZrioqjbXsqxjIRB1gijb9ONwKrR0RMjgXb3exbzmdeQ5Mw6rNtsDlD1MK eVc0SJfZHQyhFXNI0vpkXPw+R6E75fGht+KJ8= Received: by 10.223.14.211 with SMTP id h19mr96731faa.1.1284352041424; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:27:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.32.142 with SMTP id c14ls2438417fad.2.p; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.120.138 with SMTP id d10mr85089far.24.1284352040352; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.120.138 with SMTP id d10mr85088far.24.1284352040297; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f52.google.com (mail-bw0-f52.google.com [209.85.214.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p28si1565196fak.1.2010.09.12.21.27.19; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.52; Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so5318789bwz.39 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:27:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.78.143 with SMTP id l15mr2830703bkk.22.1284352038935; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.98.71 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 21:27:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 00:27:18 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b9eaa0c1c8a04901c8348 --0016363b9eaa0c1c8a04901c8348 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 and it is entirely within your right to disagree. Of course, it is also the right of the jboce'u to say "ok, great, disagree. now go talk your own special language to yourself because that's not the language that we made/use and please don't call what you're doing lojban". The CLL and what sounds like the majority of the jboce'u say that {.ai mi dansu} means "I intend to dance". I believe that this is both right and wrong. I think that UI cannot be expressed in english in text alone. I would translate {.ai mi dansu} as "I'm gonna dance" (spoken with a certain inflection that connotates intention). Your statement was something like "what's the point of pacna if .a'o means the same thing". That to me sounds kind of like "what's the point of dunli if we have du". Different connotation, different style, just... different. If I heard "mi pacna lo nu do kanro" I would translate this in my head as "I hope that you are healthy". If I heard ".a'o do kanro" I would translate that as... well, probably the same thing but it's more like I'm using intonation to express my hopefulness i.e. I would use it if I were inquiring about the health of a sick friend. basically, please stop getting glico all over my jbobau. Just because two lojban sentences translate similarly into english doesn't mean that they mean the same thing. And it also certainly does not mean that the construct that allows both sentences is broken. Yeah, "I am dancing and I feel hopeful about it" sounds far more useless than "I hope to dance". In the case where you want to express that (whatever it means) you could always just say {mi dansu .ije cinmo lo ka pacna ku di'u}. On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Lindar wrote: > > So either this is a bug in CLL that needs to be fixed next time there > > is a re-print or UI can have propositional meaning. > > It's kind of a bug in the language. One can't ask a question without > UI being able to completely change the meaning of a sentence, but then > that destroys half of the language because {.i e'u do dansu} > apparently means "I suggest you dance." according to CLL. If that's > the case, what the hell is the point of having a word like stidi? > What's the point of having any words? Why not just have all emoticraps > and sumti and not have a real language? (sorry, nerdrage) My point is > that the CLL claims {.i .e'u do dansu} means "I suggest you dance." > and I say that (that is absolutely stupid, and) it means, "You dance." > and the speaker feels suggestive. What should -really- be said is > {.i .e'u ko dansu}, which comes off to me like a softening of ko so it > doesn't sound so demanding. It sounds like, "You should dance.". Now > what the Lojban -should- be is {.i mi stidi lo nu do dansu} because > that -actually means- "I suggest you dance.". > > I will definitely admit that {.i .ai mi klama} could be read with an > implicit ba in there, but the UI in of itself doesn't affect the > meaning as much as you would like. > > HOWEVER!! > Devil's advocate time! > > If UI -doesn't- change the meaning of bridi like it suggests in CLL, > then the meaning of {xu} is completely lost. Instead of asking a > question, we're making uncertain assertions. {.i xu do dansu} is no > longer "Are you dancing?" or "Do you dance?" or "Are you a dancer?" > but "You dance." and you feel incorrect or uncertain about your > statement. > > > So we could either find some happy medium, I could be wrong about the > whole mess and then be a whiny emo brat and quit because I disagree > with everyone and don't want to speak a retarded language wherein UI > actually changes the meaning of a bridi instead of expressing one's > feelings (giant zo'o here if you didn't catch that =P), or we could > create a word like ma/mo for bridi/jufra. > > I haven't a clue what to do, I just know that I disagree. =D > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016363b9eaa0c1c8a04901c8348 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and it is entirely within your right to disagree. =A0Of course, it is also = the right of the jboce'u to say "ok, great, disagree. =A0now go ta= lk your own special language to yourself because that's not the languag= e that we made/use and please don't call what you're doing lojban&q= uot;.

The CLL and what sounds like the majority of the jboce'u= say that {.ai mi dansu} means "I intend to dance". =A0I believe = that this is both right and wrong. =A0I think that UI cannot be expressed i= n english in text alone. =A0I would translate {.ai mi dansu} as "I'= ;m gonna dance" (spoken with a certain inflection that connotates inte= ntion).

Your statement was something like "what's the = point of pacna if .a'o means the same thing". =A0That to me sounds= kind of like "what's the point of dunli if we have du". =A0D= ifferent connotation, different style, just... different.

If I heard "mi pacna lo nu do kanro" I would = translate this in my head as "I hope that you are healthy". =A0If= I heard ".a'o do kanro" I would translate that as... well, p= robably the same thing but it's more like I'm using intonation to e= xpress my=A0hopefulness=A0i.e. I would use it if I were=A0inquiring=A0about= the health of a sick friend.

basically, please stop getting glico all over my jbobau= . =A0Just because two lojban sentences translate similarly into english doe= sn't mean that they mean the same thing. =A0And it also certainly does = not mean that the construct that allows both sentences is broken.

Yeah, "I am dancing and I feel hopeful about it&qu= ot; sounds far more useless than "I hope to dance". =A0In the cas= e where you want to express that (whatever it means) you could always just = say {mi dansu .ije cinmo lo ka pacna ku di'u}.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Linda= r <lindarth= ebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
> So either this is a bug in CLL that needs to be fixe= d next time there
> is a re-print or UI can have propositional meaning.

It's kind of a bug in the language. One can't ask a question = without
UI being able to completely change the meaning of a sentence, but then
that destroys half of the language because {.i e'u do dansu}
apparently means "I suggest you dance." according to CLL. If that= 's
the case, what the hell is the point of having a word like stidi?
What's the point of having any words? Why not just have all emoticraps<= br> and sumti and not have a real language? (sorry, nerdrage) My point is
that the CLL claims {.i .e'u do dansu} means "I suggest you dance.= "
and I say that (that is absolutely stupid, and) it means, "You dance.&= quot;
and the speaker feels suggestive. What should -really- be said is
{.i .e'u ko dansu}, which comes off to me like a softening of ko so it<= br> doesn't sound so demanding. It sounds like, "You should dance.&quo= t;. Now
what the Lojban -should- be is {.i mi stidi lo nu do dansu} because
that -actually means- "I suggest you dance.".

I will definitely admit that {.i .ai mi klama} could be read with an
implicit ba in there, but the UI in of itself doesn't affect the
meaning as much as you would like.

HOWEVER!!
Devil's advocate time!

If UI -doesn't- change the meaning of bridi like it suggests in CLL, then the meaning of {xu} is completely lost. Instead of asking a
question, we're making uncertain assertions. {.i xu do dansu} is no
longer "Are you dancing?" or "Do you dance?" or "A= re you a dancer?"
but "You dance." and you feel incorrect or uncertain about your statement.


So we could either find some happy medium, I could be wrong about the
whole mess and then be a whiny emo brat and quit because I disagree
with everyone and don't want to speak a retarded language wherein UI actually changes the meaning of a bridi instead of expressing one's
feelings (giant zo'o here if you didn't catch that =3DP), or we cou= ld
create a word like ma/mo for bridi/jufra.

I haven't a clue what to do, I just know that I disagree. =3DD

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


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