From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhD-_oDkBBoEByI0Nw@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 02 17:21:38 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OrK29-0004og-Oq; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:21:38 -0700 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf309343wyb.16 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:21:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=txhn4ceKn/4paEnw9oYbCriLpUeHlA/VY0VkIprKj1k=; b=j2i8wTcR7L0hFUjrPVdZ61Qh03RVftbguj+iXvkYqMSUGFG2puhQ/P65ADYr3zPL9a vts0RMoFUDjudYCRC8lOQ2K+1EPpUxzZrwoZKP7WFnxhBZYm8XxMN9AR1CoweDIbR9Jm EOlhRo5AnSMa3xBldzmLel8kLGfMtmZu60glA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=iKM0YPwfF1W8kg5XRxVP+cXDtGSW2eWYatmvBj571X1khpGsoNTZetCbVfdSnVZRnc ouxVLd2Dd8JTIuoSY/0RDKCTcEUgqV/W0st+dnLNpc2mDtjWX82sjxgMsSC3DZRhR/sC uMWqW02IChwZjK4o7JM3V4JGnnAo2LW+PC3qw= Received: by 10.216.144.67 with SMTP id m45mr2139422wej.17.1283473278890; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.237.165 with SMTP id y37ls500717weq.1.p; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.22.194 with SMTP id t44mr572887wet.4.1283473277749; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.22.194 with SMTP id t44mr572886wet.4.1283473277721; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f42.google.com (mail-ww0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o46si351256weq.10.2010.09.02.17.21.16; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.42; Received: by mail-ww0-f42.google.com with SMTP id 18so377072wwi.1 for ; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:21:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.236.149 with SMTP id w21mr9986409weq.65.1283473276478; Thu, 02 Sep 2010 17:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.46.4 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Sep 2010 17:21:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 18:21:16 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Proposal for Katakana Lojban orthography. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd4024ab92642048f4fe842 --000e0cd4024ab92642048f4fe842 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2010/9/2 tijlan > Some Japanese jbopre have attempted the Katakana transliteration for gismu > and cmavo on the jbo-pon dictionary ( > http://www.editgrid.com/explore/user/tijlan/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B8%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3%E8%BE%9E%E6%9B%B8) > which i host on my EditGrid account. > > I myself am a Japanese speaker and have a good command of its orthography. > Katakana, like Hiragana, is a syllabary, meaning that it's not cut out for > representing single consonants. Every brivla has a consonant cluster, and no > Katakana except { ン } [n] can adequately represent that. Cmavo, on the other > hand, have no such cluster and can at least by principle be accommodated by > a syllbary. More suited for brivla -- content words -- is Kanji, the > logograms. For example: > > mi carna > ミ 回 > > ta tricu cmana > タ 木 山 > > Logograms, when you know them, are a great potential for speed reading. > > Katakana, however, has other difficulties in substituting for ASCII. It > doesn't distinguish /r/ and /l/, for instance. As you've shown above, { ri } > and { li } both become { リ }. { 'a } and { xa } become { ハ }. And so on. One > workaround may be to use Hiragana for one of each pair. Say, { ri | り } > (Hiragana) & { li | リ } (Katakana), and { 'a | は } (Hiragana} & { xa | ハ } > (Katakana}. And certain syllables would have to be represented with two > letters, such as { cu | シュ }, which is a combination of { シ } and { ュ }, > which is the smaller of { ユ }. It can get quite complicated for non-natives. > > moklu gi'e pimlu > 口 ギへ 羽 > > finpe vi lo rirxe midju > 魚 ヴィ ろ 川 中 Just out of curiousity, do those kanji in your examples have the meaning of the gismu? Does, for example, 魚 mean fish? I ask because it seems to me that that would make it more difficult to read and write Lojban, because it would be much harder to distinguish from nihongo. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 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