From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDY6bbkBBoES-T1Iw@googlegroups.com Sun Sep 12 22:21:47 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ov1U5-0006Lv-6M; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:21:47 -0700 Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17sf671569fxm.16 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:21:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=MiC+gq8pODSdn4zZu2rf6t4ROo/iz6ODu9FKB6M28Xo=; b=UXKmFXb4m8YgwvVu0+Y2xgFk6gfb//3GmCNqrq3E33b+OV85utr/EbA6tgEquP9Kmt TgJqLdyceIg2yPatf2xW43NXg6VTiFu//G6weu4q9R9TIid4Gy8OQORHpy706iu1VFjP yDfo3krOzZY5slzmrW3gGMWxbwU7tawmuq5zE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=PH0A+AhzX4a8dO9vVs2TFdQ+EdPhxTJpRfcvH/hUgz4THkyUob2RbcUUiYxNAhXd0E 4HKmQ4gaiWGFDpVUOkfCp3Fgb2Bpw0zfp6HJIro+7yGfIdqkHCbmTfZ6CHgb9u8hbfEE 00jrDZM9B0MquATXladDNwx4wtRMVDro45Zuw= Received: by 10.223.14.132 with SMTP id g4mr97811faa.5.1284355288643; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:21:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.27.83 with SMTP id h19ls2445185fac.0.p; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.110.79 with SMTP id m15mr103540fap.29.1284355287879; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.110.79 with SMTP id m15mr103539fap.29.1284355287834; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f53.google.com (mail-bw0-f53.google.com [209.85.214.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b13si1576225fab.5.2010.09.12.22.21.26; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.53; Received: by bwz1 with SMTP id 1so4872109bwz.12 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:21:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.79.199 with SMTP id q7mr2839150bkk.76.1284355286554; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.98.71 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:21:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:21:26 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dd99059ed72304901d44ac --0016e6dd99059ed72304901d44ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think you're not correct in saying that all UI must behave the same way. The CLL describes two distinct kinds of UI (ignoring for the moment evidentials, discursives, whatever ro'a and friends is, and a few others I'm probably missing). The "pure emotional indicator" type described in 13.2 (the kinds starting with 'u', 'o', and the second half of those starting with 'i') and the "propositional attitude indicators" type described in 13.3 (those starting with 'a', 'e', and the first half of 'i'). I find it kind of strange that both of these groupings are in the same selma'o (UI1). This seems like an oversight. They do seem to behave differently from each other in a significant enough way as to warrant distinct selma'o. "pure emotional indicators" behave as you describe. {.ui mi dansu} is "yay! I'm dancing". "propositional attitude indicators" do not behave as you describe but rather alter the bridi so as to indicate that it is describing a world in the speakers head and that that world is what the speaker intends/hopes/feels obliged to/desires/etc... is true This is how I read the CLL and I'm not entirely sure what your disagreement with it is besides the fact that we have sumti that also describe the emotion that can be expressed with UI. On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Lindar wrote: > > and it is entirely within your right to disagree. Of course, it is also > the > > right of the jboce'u to say "ok, great, disagree. now go talk your own > > special language to yourself because that's not the language that we > > made/use and please don't call what you're doing lojban". > > Fair enough. > > > The CLL and what sounds like the majority of the jboce'u say that {.ai mi > > dansu} means "I intend to dance". I believe that this is both right and > > wrong. I think that UI cannot be expressed in english in text alone. I > > would translate {.ai mi dansu} as "I'm gonna dance" (spoken with a > certain > > inflection that connotates intention). > > The plural of anecdote is not evidence. > Who says this? > > > Your statement was something like "what's the point of pacna if .a'o > means > > the same thing". That to me sounds kind of like "what's the point of > dunli > > if we have du". Different connotation, different style, just... > different. > > dunli and du are two different words. > > dunli - x1 is equal to x2 in property x3 > du - x1 is identical to x2 > > My statement still stands. {.i .a'o do kanro} is not stating anything > more than {.i do kanro}, it's just also stating that you feel hope > about it. {.i mi pacna lo nu do kanro} -does- mean more than that. If > you intend to do something, then with an attitude of intent, you > future do it. {.i mi ba dansu} doesn't actually assert whether or not > it actually happens, AFAIK, so {.i .ai mi ba dansu} means specifically > what most seem to think {.ai} conveys by itself. It's the difference > between "I hope that..." and "Hopefully..." in English > > > Yeah, "I am dancing and I feel hopeful about it" sounds far more useless > > than "I hope to dance". In the case where you want to express that > > (whatever it means) you could always just say {mi dansu .ije cinmo lo ka > > pacna ku di'u}. > > Okay, perhaps my fault came from expressing tense in English. > Let me put it this way: > A sentence that uses UI should mean the exact same thing as a sentence > that doesn't use UI, and the only difference should be that the former > expresses emotions about things. If you say {.i .a'o mi klama} alters > the meaning of the bridi, then -all- UI alter the meaning of the bridi > (otherwise there's a gross inconsistency in the language, amirite?), > so what does {.i .ui mi klama} mean? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6dd99059ed72304901d44ac Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think you're not correct in saying that all UI must behave the same w= ay. =A0The CLL describes two distinct kinds of UI (ignoring for the moment = evidentials, discursives, whatever ro'a and friends is, and a few other= s I'm probably missing). =A0The "pure emotional indicator" ty= pe described in 13.2 (the kinds starting with 'u', 'o', and= the second half of those starting with 'i') and the "proposit= ional attitude indicators" type described in 13.3 (those starting with= 'a', 'e', and the first half of 'i').

I find it kind of strange that both of these groupings are i= n the same selma'o (UI1). =A0This seems like an oversight. =A0They do s= eem to behave differently from each other in a=A0significant=A0enough way a= s to=A0warrant=A0distinct selma'o.

"pure emotional indicators" behave as you des= cribe. =A0{.ui mi dansu} is "yay! I'm dancing". =A0"prop= ositional attitude indicators" do not behave as you describe but rathe= r alter the bridi so as to indicate that it is describing a world in the sp= eakers head and that that world is what the speaker intends/hopes/feels obl= iged to/desires/etc... is true

This is how I read the CLL and I'm not entirely sur= e what your disagreement with it is besides the fact that we have sumti tha= t also describe the emotion that can be expressed with UI.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:=
> and it is entirely within your right to disagree. = =A0Of course, it is also the
> right of the jboce'u to say "ok, great, disagree. =A0now go t= alk your own
> special language to yourself because that's not the language that = we
> made/use and please don't call what you're doing lojban".=

Fair enough.

> The CLL and what sounds like the majority of the jboce'u say that = {.ai mi
> dansu} means "I intend to dance". =A0I believe that this is = both right and
> wrong. =A0I think that UI cannot be expressed in english in text alone= . =A0I
> would translate {.ai mi dansu} as "I'm gonna dance" (spo= ken with a certain
> inflection that connotates intention).

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.
Who says this?

> Your statement was something like "what's the point of pacna = if .a'o means
> the same thing". =A0That to me sounds kind of like "what'= ;s the point of dunli
> if we have du". =A0Different connotation, different style, just..= . different.

dunli and du are two different words.

dunli - x1 is equal to x2 in property x3
du - x1 is identical to x2

My statement still stands. {.i .a'o do kanro} is not stating anything more than {.i do kanro}, it's just also stating that you feel hope
about it. {.i mi pacna lo nu do kanro} -does- mean more than that. If
you intend to do something, then with an attitude of intent, you
future do it. {.i mi ba dansu} doesn't actually assert whether or not it actually happens, AFAIK, so {.i .ai mi ba dansu} means specifically
what most seem to think {.ai} conveys by itself. It's the difference between "I hope that..." and "Hopefully..." in English<= br>

> Yeah, "I am dancing and I feel hopeful about it" sounds far = more useless
> than "I hope to dance". =A0In the case where you want to exp= ress that
> (whatever it means) you could always just say {mi dansu .ije cinmo lo = ka
> pacna ku di'u}.

Okay, perhaps my fault came from expressing tense in English.
Let me put it this way:
A sentence that uses UI should mean the exact same thing as a sentence
that doesn't use UI, and the only difference should be that the former<= br> expresses emotions about things. If you say {.i .a'o mi klama} alters the meaning of the bridi, then -all- UI alter the meaning of the bridi
(otherwise there's a gross inconsistency in the language, amirite?), so what does {.i .ui mi klama} mean?

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