From lojban+bncCN673cmqFBDTz7fkBBoEo8i_tw@googlegroups.com Mon Sep 13 01:59:16 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ov4sZ-0003f4-Pv; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:59:16 -0700 Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9sf3885314gxk.16 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:59:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=oJszvh2Aue6NgjU22eznKQOhivHKPUPDuSDJDiolM0U=; b=e0IQQjT9YtkB8diFZjo9GsC8HbggiqklYJRYJPD30Xo6ZBUTj4Z4g4vFGZvBp8DChq B+ST4itOUwyF0uoi0Ih8ImrTKkDkxb+unWOWsr0j0zX9ryGAbgX0wFqXwvZjLlG2IazL 4m/kjNY3/FcACFpwLfBSiG1sZ9xGy83dcxXQg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=I4/0GtTVK1ujtPmgsOjRx7qAqwxMuZVqEchg4tHdbgKcLSjOpTderFidT2lvNAybPN xOtxDAT4AQjQWOP2upRfJBq1QIXviZxdORw8Grk39lxA9YtF68whjjX0inn47F4e3dYf cwxiYQ15ttGOTWkeiL9Y5clVRJpRJyOoFkgAU= Received: by 10.101.141.14 with SMTP id t14mr105842ann.53.1284368339466; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:58:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.185.34 with SMTP id m34ls3904359anp.7.p; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.153.14 with SMTP id a14mr3078688ane.56.1284368337392; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.153.14 with SMTP id a14mr3078687ane.56.1284368337332; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao104.cox.net (eastrmmtao104.cox.net [68.230.240.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id l14si5717914ang.2.2010.09.13.01.58.56; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 01:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.46 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.46; Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao104.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100913085857.BZDK16482.eastrmmtao104.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 04:58:57 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([70.179.118.163]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id 68yl1f0033Xcbvq028ylN9; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 04:58:56 -0400 X-VR-Score: -140.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=YoWnPN4EEwtYeJt8G7O+1yVFRpK0U+4N2TJUENz+oDE= c=1 sm=1 a=d6hN_chgPKUA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:17 a=pfs90QM1IWGqSzI-wFcA:9 a=bKc6EyBF6tkxPF4cQEUA:7 a=QSQf043rDODaKGFEzJG_4EoFjwsA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=sh6PArqQtYdngLzxv5aEQJAsMbE=:19 a=jGsCn8S95pcpYqeu:21 a=lYdPdY25aR7Fnk9g:21 a=7ls7RdmwX4RvLZNVULbZcg==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4C8DE806.4050107@lojban.org> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 04:59:50 -0400 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.46 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Lindar wrote: >>So either this is a bug in CLL that needs to be fixed next time there >>is a re-print or UI can have propositional meaning. > > It's kind of a bug in the language. One can't ask a question without > UI being able to completely change the meaning of a sentence, NA also completely changed the meaning of the sentence. Why would you think that adding a word cannot completely change the meaning of the sentence. > but then > that destroys half of the language because {.i e'u do dansu} > apparently means "I suggest you dance." according to CLL. How does that addition "destroy" anything? > If that's the case, what the hell is the point of having a word like stidi? Because stidi expresses a claim about a suggester and a suggestion. {.i do dansu} is a claim about you dancing. {.i e'u do dansu} is also a claim about you dancing. It is a suggestion that that claim should be true (whether by action or thought is unclear). There is, however, no way to use .e'u to translate "Obama suggested that the Israelis and the Palestinians meet weekly". (Or rather, if you use it, you are suggesting that it should be made true or considered true (tense is one factor on which applies)). > What's the point of having any words? Why not just have all emoticraps > and sumti and not have a real language? You seem to have a perverse definition of "language". One could have a very expressive language using only "emoticraps" and "sumti", but it would not be a very complete language. (Actually, depending on what you mean by sumti, you could, since sumti can include bridi within them, but it would have to use a strongly different style for truth-functional claims). One could have a language without "emoticraps" or some equivalent expressed through tone of voice, body language, etc, but it wouldn't be a human language. > My point is > that the CLL claims {.i .e'u do dansu} means "I suggest you dance." > and I say that (that is absolutely stupid, and) it means, "You dance." > and the speaker feels suggestive. What would that mean? > What should -really- be said is > {.i .e'u ko dansu}, which comes off to me like a softening of ko so it > doesn't sound so demanding. It is. > It sounds like, "You should dance.". Now > what the Lojban -should- be is {.i mi stidi lo nu do dansu} because > that -actually means- "I suggest you dance.". That is a truth claim that "I suggest you dance". It is not a suggestion. Its truth is analyzed in the same way one would analyze "Obama suggests you dance" or "You and I suggest that Obama dances" or "Obama suggests that you meet with the Israelis and the Palestinians every week". To claim that something is a suggestion (or has been a suggestion, or will be suggested in the future) is not actually MAKING the suggestion. > I will definitely admit that {.i .ai mi klama} could be read with an > implicit ba in there, Only because time travel is impossible. %^) And what you might be trying to express with {.i .ai mi klama} is something other than {.i mi ba klama}. If there was a party yesterday that I missed {.i .ai.u'u mi klama} may indicate that you intended to go, and should have gone, but didn't. Or perhaps, you have visited someone in hospital the last several days and show up today, and they seem surprised. You might say {.i .ai mi klama} indicating that you intended to come both times, and indeed context may mean that what you are saying is {.i mi di'i.ai klama} (Either "I intended to come regularly, so you shouldn't be surprised to see me" or "I intend to come regularly so I hope you won't be surprised to see me tomorrow"). You could express those long winded relationships as bridi, but then you've changed the focus of your statement from being about the coming, to being about the intention, and you'll end up adding emotive and possibly judgmental stuff about surprise and expectation on the part of the other person. Another non-future example. You and someone else smell smoke. "Fagri" merely infers a fire, and in many cases would lead to a call to the fire department. "fagri .ai" tells the other person that either you are an arsonist (unlikely) or that you started a fire intentionally, or told someone else to do so (perhaps in the fireplace, but in any case it is not something to necessarily be concerned about) - it is the fire that is the important thing and not who started it. You could probably communicate all this more explicitly and precisely using bridi. But few people would. They would instead come up with a shorter way to express the key thing they are trying to communicate, and to hell with what the grammar rules say. > but the UI in of itself doesn't affect the meaning as much as you would like. But it does. UI can, as someone (pc?) noted, make a statement counterfactual. Or it might invoke a possible world (any statement about the future necessarily invokes a possible world, since we don't know the future) > So we could either find some happy medium, I could be wrong about the > whole mess and then be a whiny emo brat and quit because I disagree > with everyone and don't want to speak a retarded language wherein UI > actually changes the meaning of a bridi instead of expressing one's > feelings (giant zo'o here if you didn't catch that =P) Expressing your feelings with UI doesn't change the meaning of the bridi. {.i .ai mi klama ti} is still a bridi relating "me" and "here" and movement by an unstated route and means of transport. But it can change the meaning of the utterance that contains the bridi, which is not the same as the bridi itself. It might make the utterance counterfactual, or it might simply constrain the interpretation of the unstated parts of the bridi - as you said, by implying a probable "ba" that wouldn't otherwise be assumed. lojbab -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.