From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCA4bjkBBoEdxF3VQ@googlegroups.com Mon Sep 13 07:09:21 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ov9ie-0007yn-Uz; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:09:20 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf3978690gya.16 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:09:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=f9eRDTyFuJ9GVGd+VOMpLP2uvEBP6/2jp+gKwfNZkSA=; b=UJtotZ/ackn5y1+i0sCUqhdNZnC2J0txO4RnqDHxqOUTHnrpbr1zSun2vF/2+02V8S 9tAYKb0Glh7Kqru8YZLVkMICfWHweDQiN/FYG6z7wDwro6+FWulbks7/0++hBMEuXoGu cne67h82owSZ1bTHLVUGZKmuQzvNQM/Yw7Fo0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=voyCUan8ihmkTiLCVDGHVhR12yfsvmT+yHwx9guqAgXhBKc3zSkZROw5is8W3yMXsd 9wfzeuHa+OeKGoPRhE9s8f12DR0QWCPrwGWFSyoD/CFJct9XndQt6mteZwoA5gqHpdtN +3dVDON6xOe8DBN/9gVERF+B8y5H0YRAyssvo= Received: by 10.91.12.6 with SMTP id p6mr402130agi.42.1284386944817; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:09:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.68.29 with SMTP id q29ls3660761yba.4.p; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.3 with SMTP id 3mr1119442ybl.41.1284386944347; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.3 with SMTP id 3mr1119441ybl.41.1284386944308; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id a6si3979339ybo.14.2010.09.13.07.09.03; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 67369 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Sep 2010 14:09:02 -0000 Message-ID: <687799.67296.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: x2rouVEVM1m9di6spq7DojwYvhWR1cx176l9itV_lGdUGye Bw9JGl9v7_hHkipHMCt.TUV2RpDwHBNSWq3G_kKZ6tyqgL3I_gEBvB.Ntauv l39DQ.unEIHdxNjfOQ4xRzXmwsU3kze7cQlBLOhrFSULdh_hntZfwqMgpZWb KinRYcHYK_xBk8Ru_y_YScpUb7oDjDqU3lnkEaMERtP4n3Y5r3_cTUDiax5m 0Y_EnlTCeU69YEb8FfsdJcOLuXzPpsZLwfH71U9s2qXnY3lgPx9kFBpgElE3 NOggfGC4VL1O7F_PfgI.svOP6P72IXwMGKK.0qK4Z5UhH7G7kC3BUzi7R0Aj SLowU810uORIwYmzEvAHdj8g3h26IRzgOCeRIeg-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:09:02 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 07:09:02 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hopefully, journalists don't write fiction, which was the subject at the ti= me.=20 They are more likely to use evidentials than counterfactuals. But now, back to 101. =20 As Mad Ludwig used to say, there are a number of language games, only a ver= y few=20 of which are about stating facts. Y'all seem to be trying to reduce a large= =20 number of other games to these few. Lojban (thx Loglan) makes quite explic= it=20 devices for playing at a number of others. Some of these are reasonably=20 familiar (or, at least, parts of them are): There is the impelling -others = game=20 of imperatives and hortatives (Go!, Let's go). There is the moral=20 world-changing game of promises and vows. There is the rather related game= of=20 expressing ones intentions (not quite a vow or promise, but similar enough = to be=20 dealt with in a similar way). There is the meaning-world creation of=20 counterfactuals, which is very different from any of these, since it takes = one=20 out of the present context and puts one in another altogether -- but not in= a=20 story-telling sort of way. And there are many more. To say that 'ai mi bedgo' (Panlan, a literary shadow of early Loglan) means= "It=20 is my intention to go to bed", which might be either true or false, dependi= ng on=20 my state of mind, is just to think the speaker is playing chess when he is= =20 really playing Bridge. "I'm gonta bed" is better; it is more clearly merel= y an=20 expression of intention. The response "Oh no you aren't " is not a declara= tion=20 that some claim the sentence made (it didn't make one) is false but either= =20 introduces a (presumed dominant) intension: "You're gonna finish washing th= e=20 dishes" or a question of sincerity ("I know you are really planning on snea= king=20 off to snog with your boyfriend"). =20 You get some fun when you try to report these utterances with other than di= rect=20 quotes: "She said that she was going to bed" probably works in English bec= ause=20 of the unlikelihood of this being a prediction, but doing the same in Lojba= n=20 might raise problems. I admit I no longer remember what to do in these cas= es=20 nor whether the issue was ever raised or answered. Have fun! ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, September 13, 2010 8:35:19 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 11:44 PM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > So, of course, you don't use counterfactual flags > throughout a story, no matter how different its context is from the here = and > now. Unless you are a journalist and you don't want to get sued. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.