From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDglITkBBoEqI0fFg@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 03 07:47:18 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OrXXr-0002BS-E9; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:47:17 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf2482994gwb.16 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :sender:received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=X+JAle1hazF/60rIunqYdrO4X3kxt8COyYVTvSJMBLo=; b=eTvHTQqkn49ZnLHkEtgJOZ8jpNYDA6/bDVMLZwdyGLdLwq9tJILBK2FJnwV/nTm7TJ BVnCjSKKi05SY5ZFlUU0SkZhtbtP8NC0A6M31Ze8ogjLgLADJEgfPmCwPWh8QZWHyAty 8Bq1xdfdBWG0BiBK/XOvZCKwtj839TDfykDQc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=vJ48UX6xUI963xmjtva2Sewd/r5y0z57BPj7vxBi2VBmTYpeixBfPp87XdB/PZFTql MV9X1Z2zMFduhH2mGDjldnFRdz6pXGj4QfeYIdyadLfaIaPt8KgdVuWrb2aGoXQTez1c 5c1zeEz7QuZTvTCshxzR+Dbl4oKfMsqU9uAks= Received: by 10.91.135.13 with SMTP id m13mr214036agn.22.1283525216960; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.17.2 with SMTP id 2ls330847ybq.0.p; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.62.9 with SMTP id p9mr274037ybk.13.1283525216364; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.191.136 with SMTP id dm8mr47064qcb.28.1283514189714; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.191.136 with SMTP id dm8mr47063qcb.28.1283514189665; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f45.google.com (mail-qw0-f45.google.com [209.85.216.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x2si907788qcq.11.2010.09.03.04.43.08; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.45; Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5so2304144qwh.18 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:43:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.224.147 with SMTP id io19mr494486qcb.69.1283514188327; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.28.141 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Sep 2010 04:43:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 12:43:08 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Proposal for Katakana Lojban orthography. From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364eca36426ffe048f596fd2 --0016364eca36426ffe048f596fd2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2010/9/3 Jonathan Jones > 2010/9/2 tijlan > >> Some Japanese jbopre have attempted the Katakana transliteration for gismu >> and cmavo on the jbo-pon dictionary ( >> http://www.editgrid.com/explore/user/tijlan/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B8%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3%E8%BE%9E%E6%9B%B8) >> which i host on my EditGrid account. >> >> >> I myself am a Japanese speaker and have a good command of its orthography. >> Katakana, like Hiragana, is a syllabary, meaning that it's not cut out for >> representing single consonants. Every brivla has a consonant cluster, and no >> Katakana except { ン } [n] can adequately represent that. Cmavo, on the other >> hand, have no such cluster and can at least by principle be accommodated by >> a syllbary. More suited for brivla -- content words -- is Kanji, the >> logograms. For example: >> >> mi carna >> ミ 回 >> >> ta tricu cmana >> タ 木 山 >> >> Logograms, when you know them, are a great potential for speed reading. >> >> Katakana, however, has other difficulties in substituting for ASCII. It >> doesn't distinguish /r/ and /l/, for instance. As you've shown above, { ri } >> and { li } both become { リ }. { 'a } and { xa } become { ハ }. And so on. One >> workaround may be to use Hiragana for one of each pair. Say, { ri | り } >> (Hiragana) & { li | リ } (Katakana), and { 'a | は } (Hiragana} & { xa | ハ } >> (Katakana}. And certain syllables would have to be represented with two >> letters, such as { cu | シュ }, which is a combination of { シ } and { ュ }, >> which is the smaller of { ユ }. It can get quite complicated for non-natives. >> >> moklu gi'e pimlu >> 口 ギへ 羽 >> >> finpe vi lo rirxe midju >> 魚 ヴィ ろ 川 中 >> > > Just out of curiousity, do those kanji in your examples have the meaning of > the gismu? Does, for example, 魚 mean fish? > Yes. And its shape derived from the actual appearance of a fish jumping out of water. I ask because it seems to me that that would make it more difficult to read > and write Lojban, because it would be much harder to distinguish from > nihongo. > That might be the case, yes. The good thing about Kanji, though, is that it's potentially much more intuitive than alphabets and syllabary. 回 シアルヌア carna The brain incurs less cognitive process with pictorial/logographic Kanji. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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