From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDglITkBBoEqI0fFg@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 03 07:47:34 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OrXY9-0002BS-Pz; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:47:33 -0700 Received: by mail-gw0-f61.google.com with SMTP id 11sf2482994gwb.16 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:47:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :sender:received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=O/QyfUFBDw5B5Il3AcnGqcUwjMavnnRQ3OJFy/o9cng=; b=EMLUnHMxUqe6ghI+j7ck1AIXfaLYqRi01GVm0zmvB/69j9UFaYXmoQ5LzbdGJL/GoH /T6C4Cz4xtaRMuoUfMYBXIILZw2s35uhKPaQhsPn3qrZFQnMiUFsUTmBlPi9v/8zLaKS MmYCdZrWFhT6qduLECgarrj9ouJWYsmA9LFXY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=R8dayrVy0JFJaXohVQyL3GeJos9I3GHsAbw7Thn8VJe81tphbyPNeSDlGX3gBv9+eh tjdp3Y7mj/UWaEX2aAMDUKOeHDtxQ/lYTzoBhWt3YfJB7rkCkn+ZgMS3NpXgs+L/whFx a/qRk/Sta8sYOz8yDS/VxEfazz5MRyLK7M6y4= Received: by 10.91.16.10 with SMTP id t10mr199859agi.39.1283525220172; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:47:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.127.4 with SMTP id e4ls709398ybn.7.p; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.147.10 with SMTP id z10mr313203ybn.31.1283525216046; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.180.138 with SMTP id bu10mr282475vcb.0.1283513127171; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.180.138 with SMTP id bu10mr282473vcb.0.1283513126971; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f175.google.com (mail-qy0-f175.google.com [209.85.216.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j20si23064vcn.2.2010.09.03.04.25.25; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.175; Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31so3385820qyk.6 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:25:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.65.197 with SMTP id k5mr17904qai.52.1283513125437; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 04:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.28.141 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Sep 2010 04:25:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 12:25:24 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Proposal for Katakana Lojban orthography. From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f99e3ffe802bc048f592fe2 --00c09f99e3ffe802bc048f592fe2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3 September 2010 01:12, Jonathan Jones wrote: > All the "Cu" kana are pronounced without the 'u' bit, as =E3=81=A7=E3=81= =99 is pronounced > 'des', in the proposal. As such, the =E3=82=A6 has to be there. > That's what i understood about the first option, =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A6=E3=82= =B9=E3=82=AF=E3=82=A6. You add =E3=82=A6 to =E3=82=B7 and =E3=82=AF, since they are supposed to lack the /u/ bit, yes. What appeared to me odd was that, in =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF= =E3=82=A6, =E3=83=A5 is set for /u/, while also =E3=82=A6 is to represent /u/. Also, normally, the small =E3=83=A5 isn't used individ= ually but as a component of a semi-ligature like =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5. So, i thought yo= u meant the second alternative to be more of an alphabetic (phoneme-based) rather than syllabic (syllable-based) solution for {cusku}, where the last =E3=82=A6 wo= uld be redundant. Otherwise, how would you know that =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF is = pronounced {cusku} and not > {cusuku}? > You wouldn't. And a workaround i can think of is to use the interpunct inherent to the Japanese input methods: cusku -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=83=BB=E3=82=AF cusuku -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF =E3=82=B8 is pronounced {jy.} and follows the same rules as =E3=82=B7, as = in djica: =E3=83=85=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A4=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3. >>> >> >> or =E3=83=82=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3. {tci} can unambiguously be =E3=83=81, an= d {dji} =E3=83=82. >> > > It has to be that =E3=83=82 is {di}, =E3=83=81 is {ti}, and {tci} is =E3= =83=84=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4, or it would > break the rest of the proposal. > You 1) split {ci} into =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4, but not {ti} into =E3=83=81=E3= =82=A4, and 2) set =E3=83=84 for {t}? Why not split {ti} into =E3=83=81=E3=82=A4 so as to make the scheme more consis= tent? In your current proposal (sometimes phoneme-based, sometimes syllable-based): c -- =E3=82=B7 t -- =E3=83=84 i -- =E3=82=A4 ci -- =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4 ti -- =E3=83=81 (rather than more predictable =E3=83=84=E3=82=A4) cti -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=81 (rather than more predictable =E3=82=B7=E3=83=84= =E3=82=A4) tci -- =E3=83=84=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4 In my suggestion (always phoneme-based): c -- =E3=82=B7 t -- =E3=83=81 i -- =E3=82=A4 ci -- =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4 ti -- =E3=83=81=E3=82=A4 cti -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=81=E3=82=A4 tci -- =E3=83=81=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4 > > For example: Is =E3=83=82=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AB=E2=80=B3 {diklu} or {djiklu}? > It could be even {dkr}. For {diklu}, maybe =E3=83=82=E3=82=A4=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AA=E3=82=A6. For {djiklu}, maybe =E3=83=82=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A4=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AA=E3=82=A6. > =E3=83=B2is pronounced {.y.} >>> >> To write {y'u}, use =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6. >>> >> >> =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 is most probably {xau} or {'au}. >> > >> {'u} is tricky. It would have to be distinguishable from {fu} and {xu}, >> and both Katakana and Hiragana have none for {'u} and {xu}. =E3=83=95 is= actually >> {fu}, but you have assigned it to {fy}. >> > > Because only =E3=83=95 is pronounced with the {fy.} sound, it is {fy.}. S= o, {fa}, > {fi}, {fu},{fe}, {fo} are =E3=83=95=E3=82=A2, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A4, =E3=83= =95=E3=82=A6, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A8, =E3=83=95=E3=82=AA. > Right, that would be reasonable for a phoneme-based Kana scheme. Since this means there is no 'hu', I decided on using =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 to= mean that. Doing > a subscript =E3=82=A6 would be preferable. I considered =E3=83=92=E3=82= =A6, =E3=83=98=E3=82=A6, and =E3=83=9B=E3=82=A6 as well, and > =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 just looks the best to me. > Sounds fine to me too. > I also considered making =E3=83=98 be {y'y} instead of {y'e}, which would= mean that > =E3=83=8F, =E3=83=92, and =E3=83=9B aren't used at all. > =E3=83=98 is a single line and looks a bit counter-intuitive for {y'y}. Why= not =E3=83=9B, which has a visual symmetry analogous to {y'y} as a whole? > =E3=83=AF is pronounced {vy.}, and followed by a vowel, as in vu: =E3=83= =AF=E3=82=A6. >>> >> >> =E3=83=AF is actually {ua}. =E3=83=AF=E3=82=A6 is {uau}. >> >> The foreign {v} sound in Japanese is typically transliterated as =E3=83= =B4, as in >> =E3=83=A9=E3=83=B4 for "love". >> > > I didn't know that. I also have no idea how to make that symbol with a > standard U.S. keyboard, so.... > In the Microsoft IME "full-width Katakana" mode, you get =E3=83=B4 by simpl= y typing "vu". > The reason I chose =E3=83=AF for {vy.} is because we have =E3=82=A6=E3=82= =A2, so =E3=83=AF isn't needed for > it. The =E3=82=A6" works for me. > So, {ua} is =E3=82=A6=E3=82=A2, and {u.a} is =E3=82=A6=EF=BC=8E=E3=82=A2? The 'k' kana with =C2=BA is pronounced {xy.} as in xrula: =E3=82=AF=C2=BA= =E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6=E3=83=A9=E2=80=B3=E3=82=A2. >> >> >> That's an interesting idea. =E3=82=9C for a non-labial is never used in = formal >> Japanese. It looks funny to the natives, so it sometimes gets used in ma= nga >> for comical expressions. >> > > {xy.} and {ky.} are closely related, and =E3=82=AC, etc. are already used= for {gV}, > so that was my best idea. I know that's not what the maru symbolizes. (It= is > called maru, yes?) > Sounds fine. (Yes, it's called "maru" colloquially or "handakuten" linguistically.) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00c09f99e3ffe802bc048f592fe2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 3 September 2010 01:12, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
All the "Cu" kana are pronounced = without the 'u' bit, as =E3=81=A7=E3=81=99 is pronounced 'des&#= 39;, in the proposal. As such, the =E3=82=A6 has to be there.

That's what i understood about the first option, = =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A6=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF=E3=82=A6. You add =E3=82=A6 to =E3=82= =B7 and =E3=82=AF, since they are supposed to lack the /u/ bit, yes.

What appeared to me odd was that, in =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82= =AF=E3=82=A6, =E3=83=A5 is set for /u/, while also =E3=82=A6 is to represen= t /u/. Also, normally, the small =E3=83=A5 isn't used individually but = as a component of a semi-ligature like =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5. So, i thought yo= u meant the second alternative to be more of an alphabetic (phoneme-based) = rather than syllabic (syllable-based) solution for {cusku}, where the last = =E3=82=A6 would be redundant.


Otherwise, how would you know that =E3=82=B7= =E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF is pronounced {cusku} and not {cusuku}?

You wouldn't. And a workaround i can = think of is to use the interpunct inherent to the Japanese input methods:
=C2=A0cusku -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=83=BB=E3=82=AF
=C2= =A0cusuku -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF


=E3=82=B8 <= /span>is pronounced {jy.} and follows the same rules as =E3=82=B7, as in djica: =E3=83=85=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A4=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3.


or =E3=83=82=E3=82= =B7=E3=83=A3. {tci} can unambiguously be =E3=83=81, and {dji} =E3=83=82.

It has to be that =E3=83=82 is=C2=A0 {di}, =E3= =83=81 is {ti}, and {tci} is =E3=83=84=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4, or it would break= the rest of the proposal.

You 1) spli= t {ci} into =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4, but not {ti} into =E3=83=81=E3=82=A4, and 2= ) set =E3=83=84 for {t}? Why not split {ti} into =E3=83=81=E3=82=A4 so as t= o make the scheme more consistent?

In your current proposal (sometimes phoneme-based, sometimes syllable-b= ased):

c -- =E3=82=B7
t -- =E3=83=84
i -- =E3=82=A4

ci -- =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4
ti -- =E3=83=81 (rather than more predictable =E3=83=84=E3=82=A4)
cti -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=81 (rather than more predictable =E3=82=B7=E3=83=84= =E3=82=A4)
tci -- =E3=83=84=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4

In my suggestion (always phoneme-= based):

c -- =E3=82=B7
t -- =E3=83=81
i -- =E3=82=A4

ci= -- =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4
ti -- =E3=83=81=E3=82=A4
cti -- =E3=82=B7=E3= =83=81=E3=82=A4
tci -- =E3=83=81=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4

=C2=A0

For example: Is =E3=83=82=E3=82=AF=E3= =83=AB=E2=80=B3 {diklu} or {djiklu}?

I= t could be even {dkr}.

For {diklu}, maybe =E3=83=82=E3=82=A4=E3=82= =AF=E3=83=AA=E3=82=A6.
For {djiklu}, maybe =E3=83=82=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A4= =E3=82=AF=E3=83=AA=E3=82=A6.

=C2=A0

=E3=83=B2is pronounced {.y.}

To write {y'u}, use =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6.<= /p>


=E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 is most probably {xau} or= {'au}.

{'u} is tricky. It would have to be distinguishable = from {fu} and {xu}, and both Katakana and Hiragana have none for {'u} a= nd {xu}. =E3=83=95 is actually {fu}, but you have assigned it to {fy}.
=C2=A0
Because only =E3=83=95= is pronounced with the {fy.} sound, it is {fy.}. So, {fa}, {fi}, {fu},{fe}= , {fo} are =E3=83=95=E3=82=A2, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A4, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A6, =E3= =83=95=E3=82=A8, =E3=83=95=E3=82=AA.

Right= , that would be reasonable for a phoneme-based Kana scheme.


Since this means there is no 'hu', I = decided on using =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 to mean that. Doing a subscript =E3=82= =A6 would be preferable. I considered =E3=83=92=E3=82=A6, =E3=83=98=E3=82= =A6, and =E3=83=9B=E3=82=A6 as well, and =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 just looks the = best to me.

Sounds fine to me too.

=C2=A0
I also considered making =E3=83=98 be {y'y} instead of {y'e}, which= would mean that =E3=83=8F, =E3=83=92, and =E3=83=9B aren't used at all= .

=E3=83=98 is a single line and looks= a bit counter-intuitive for {y'y}. Why not =E3=83=9B, which has a visu= al symmetry analogous to {y'y} as a whole?

=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">

=E3=83=AF <= /span>is pronounced {vy.}, and followed by a vowel, as in vu: =E3=83=AF=E3=82=A6<= /font>.


=E3=83=AF is= actually {ua}. =E3=83=AF=E3=82=A6 is {uau}.

The foreign {v} sound in Japanese is typically transliterated as =E3=83=B4,= as in =E3=83=A9=E3=83=B4 for "love".

I didn't know that. I also have no idea how to make tha= t symbol with a standard U.S. keyboard, so....

In the Microsoft IME "full-width Kat= akana" mode, you get =E3=83=B4 by simply typing "vu".
=C2=A0
The reason I chose =E3=83=AF for {vy.} is because we have =E3=82=A6=E3=82= =A2, so =E3=83=AF isn't needed for it. The =E3=82=A6" works for me= .

So, {ua} is =E3=82=A6=E3=82=A2, and = {u.a} is =E3=82=A6=EF=BC=8E=E3=82=A2?


The 'k' kana with =C2=BA is pronounced {xy.} as in= xrula: =E3=82=AF=C2=BA=E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6=E3=83=A9=E2=80=B3=E3=82=A2.


That's an i= nteresting idea. =E3=82=9C for a non-labial is never used in formal Japanes= e. It looks funny to the natives, so it sometimes gets used in manga for co= mical expressions.

{xy.} and {ky.} are c= losely related, and =E3=82=AC, etc. are already used for {gV}, so that was = my best idea. I know that's not what the maru symbolizes. (It is called= maru, yes?)

Sounds fine.

(Yes, it's called= "maru" colloquially or "handakuten" linguistically.)

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