From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCX2oXkBBoEVe9liQ@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 03 14:48:38 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ore7Q-0000w1-Dx; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:48:38 -0700 Received: by wwf26 with SMTP id 26sf612488wwf.16 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:48:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=f4lJ1SW83HXwma8ZXPf0D4Ivelfyq8QxuMp49z2+aFY=; b=VU/WEaX9jk9DEuGfoKc22AuhNAfIh6qIliw5pfPIvG6OuPsz/sLheTk592cXOge0hq fRNoPgkpoSe1tyUTznQZvUjPHozO37y1kSHIfW/OM/rkTl/QikNPwjhyLigrkvG39YSj swoIGsQx5wMiucjVCaMVjx09/+NzW5ym7C7QI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=XuW6zfaK1J6tFGVPJyPDsgTro0cB+Ti9242xhvolX8lEuCJHd93E0YlQJglKsI3Rlt xxPkYBAIFSt9LctlWh7UaeJAqrkR6w6FRedfTEWmZ9dMOE4RDIcjtJuG9Iw0gIRIw3fH BfItW8SVXax4T/166RJU3qbpNiEYQ8PjIwrIM= Received: by 10.216.144.38 with SMTP id m38mr305983wej.14.1283550487727; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:48:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.46.205 with SMTP id r53ls117386eeb.7.p; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.29.11 with SMTP id h11mr105273eea.19.1283550486497; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.29.11 with SMTP id h11mr105272eea.19.1283550486436; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f52.google.com (mail-ew0-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a48si2346233eei.6.2010.09.03.14.48.05; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.52; Received: by ewy20 with SMTP id 20so1875949ewy.39 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:48:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.153.140 with SMTP id f12mr809202wek.111.1283550485231; Fri, 03 Sep 2010 14:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.46.4 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Sep 2010 14:48:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 15:48:05 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Proposal for Katakana Lojban orthography. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e65b54dcb93cff048f61e2c9 --0016e65b54dcb93cff048f61e2c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My idea behind this is that it would frequently save some space to use the other kana, for instance, =E3=83=96=E3=82=A2=E3=82=B7=E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6 is = bacru, but =E3=83=90=E3=82=B7=E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6 saves a character. This is why =E3=83=81 is {ti}, not {t}. Maybe a chart is in order? (The bold ent= ries are the important ones.) *=E3=82=A2 - {a} =E3=82=A4 - {i} =E3=82=A6 - {u} =E3=82=A8 - {e} =E3=82=AA - {o}* =E3=82=AB - {ka} =E3=82=AD - {ki} *=E3=82=AF - {ky.}*, =E3=82=AF=E3=82=A6 - {ku}, =E3=82=AF=E3=82=A2 - {ka}, = etc. =E3=82=B1 - {ke} =E3=82=B3 - {ko} =E3=82=AC - {ga} =E3=82=AE - {gi} *=E3=82=B0 - {gy.}*, =E3=82=B0=E3=82=A6 - {gu}, =E3=82=B0=E3=82=A2 - {ga}, = etc. =E3=82=B2 - {ge} =E3=82=B4 - {go} =E3=82=AB=C2=BA - {xa} =E3=82=AD=C2=BA - {xi} *=E3=82=AF=C2=BA - {xy.}*, =E3=82=AF=C2=BA=E3=82=A6 - {xu}, =E3=82=AF=C2=BA= =E3=82=A2 - {xa}, etc. =E3=82=B1=C2=BA - {xe} =E3=82=B3=C2=BA - {xo} =E3=82=B5 - {sa} *=E3=82=B7 - {cy.}*, =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A2, =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3 - {ca}, =E3=82= =B7=E3=82=A4 - {ci}, =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A6, =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5 - {cu}, =E3=82= =B7=E3=82=A7, =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A8 - {ce}, =E3=82=B7=E3=82=AA, =E3=82=B7=E3= =83=A7 - {co} *=E3=82=B9 - {sy.}*, =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A6 - {su}, =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A4 - {si}, = =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A2 - {sa}, etc. =E3=82=BB - {se} =E3=82=BD - {so} =E3=82=B6 - {za} *=E3=82=B8 - {jy.}*, =E3=82=B8=E3=82=A2, =E3=82=B8=E3=83=A3 - {ja}, =E3=82= =B8=E3=82=A4 - {ji}, =E3=82=B8=E3=82=A6, =E3=82=B8=E3=83=A5 - {ju}, =E3=82= =B8=E3=82=A7, =E3=82=B8=E3=82=A8 - {je}, =E3=82=B8=E3=82=AA, =E3=82=B8=E3= =83=A7 - {jo} *=E3=82=BA - {zy.}*, =E3=82=BA=E3=82=A6 - {zu}, =E3=82=BA=E3=82=A4 - {zi}, = =E3=82=BA=E3=82=A2 - {za}, etc. =E3=82=BC - {ze} =E3=82=BE - {zo} =E3=82=BF - {ta} =E3=83=81 - {ti} *=E3=83=84 - {ty.}*, =E3=83=84=E3=82=A6 - {tu}, =E3=83=84=E3=82=A2 - {ta}, = etc. =E3=83=86 - {te} =E3=83=88 - {to} =E3=83=80 - {da} =E3=83=82 - {di} *=E3=83=85 - {dy.}*, =E3=83=85=E3=82=A6 - {du}, =E3=83=85=E3=82=A2 - {da}, = etc. =E3=83=87 - {de} =E3=83=89 - {do} =E3=83=8A - {na} =E3=83=8B - {ni} *=E3=83=8C - {ny.}*, =E3=83=8C=E3=82=A6 - {nu}, =E3=83=8C=E3=82=A2 - {na}, = etc. =E3=83=8D - {ne} =E3=83=8E - {no} =E3=83=8F - {y'y.} =E3=83=92 - {y'y.} *=E3=83=95 - {fy.}*, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A2 - {fa}, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A4 - {fi}, = =E3=83=95=E3=82=A6 - {fu}, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A8 - {fe}, =E3=83=95=E3=82=AA - = {fo} =E3=83=98 - {y'y.} =E3=83=9B - {y'y.} (I believe doing the {hV} series this way causes the least problems. Basically, any {hV} except =E3=83=95, which is {fy.}, acts as { ' } does in= the standard orthography, so =E3=83=9F=E3=83=8F=E3=82=A2, =E3=83=9F=E3=83=92=E3= =82=A2, =E3=83=9F=E3=83=98=E3=82=A2, and =E3=83=9F=E3=83=9B=E3=82=A2, and v= ariants such as =E3=83=A0=E3=82=A4=E3=83=8F=E3=82=A2, are all {mi'a}. (It also might be better to just keep { ' }, as in =E3=83= =9F=E2=80=99=E3=82=A2. (Or possibly use =E3=83=BC, as in =E3=83=9F=E3=83=BC=E3=82=A2, which unlike { '= }, works in the vertical as well.))) =E3=83=90 - {ba} =E3=83=93 - {bi} *=E3=83=96 - {by.}*, =E3=83=96=E3=82=A6 - {bu}, =E3=83=96=E3=82=A2 - {ba}, = etc. =E3=83=99 - {be} =E3=83=9C - {bo} =E3=83=91 - {pa} =E3=83=94 - {pi} *=E3=83=97 - {py.}*, =E3=83=97=E3=82=A6 - {pu}, =E3=83=97=E3=82=A2 - {pa}, = etc. =E3=83=9A - {pe} =E3=83=9D - {po} =E3=83=9E - {ma} =E3=83=9F - {mi} *=E3=83=A0 - {my.}*, =E3=83=A0=E3=82=A6 - {mu}, =E3=83=A0=E3=82=A2 - {ma}, = etc. =E3=83=A1 - {me} =E3=83=A2 - {mo} =E3=83=A9 - {ra} =E3=83=AA - {ri} *=E3=83=AB - {ry.}*, =E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6 - {ru}, =E3=83=AB=E3=82=A2 - {ra}, = etc. =E3=83=AC - {re} =E3=83=AD - {ro} =E3=83=A9=E2=80=B3 - {la} =E3=83=AA=E2=80=B3 - {li} *=E3=83=AB=E2=80=B3 - {ly.}*, =E3=83=AB=E2=80=B3=E3=82=A6 - {lu}, =E3=83=AB= =E2=80=B3=E3=82=A2 - {la}, etc. =E3=83=AC=E2=80=B3 - {le} =E3=83=AD=E2=80=B3 - {lo} *=E3=83=B4 - {vy.}*, =E3=83=B4=E3=82=A2 - {va}, etc. *=E3=83=B2 - {y}* Basically, =E3=82=AB is (for an example), in this proposal, merely a way of= saving a character to write =E3=82=AF=E3=82=A2{ky.}{a}. On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 5:25 AM, tijlan wrote: > On 3 September 2010 01:12, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> All the "Cu" kana are pronounced without the 'u' bit, as =E3=81=A7=E3=81= =99 is pronounced >> 'des', in the proposal. As such, the =E3=82=A6 has to be there. >> > > That's what i understood about the first option, =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A6=E3=82= =B9=E3=82=AF=E3=82=A6. You add =E3=82=A6 to =E3=82=B7 and > =E3=82=AF, since they are supposed to lack the /u/ bit, yes. > > What appeared to me odd was that, in =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF= =E3=82=A6, =E3=83=A5 is set for /u/, while also =E3=82=A6 > is to represent /u/. Also, normally, the small =E3=83=A5 isn't used indiv= idually but > as a component of a semi-ligature like =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5. So, i thought = you meant the > second alternative to be more of an alphabetic (phoneme-based) rather tha= n > syllabic (syllable-based) solution for {cusku}, where the last =E3=82=A6 = would be > redundant. > > > Otherwise, how would you know that =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF i= s pronounced {cusku} and not >> {cusuku}? >> > > You wouldn't. And a workaround i can think of is to use the interpunct > inherent to the Japanese input methods: > > cusku -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=83=BB=E3=82=AF > cusuku -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF > > > =E3=82=B8 is pronounced {jy.} and follows the same rules as =E3=82=B7, = as in djica: >>>> =E3=83=85=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A4=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3. >>>> >>> >>> or =E3=83=82=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3. {tci} can unambiguously be =E3=83=81, a= nd {dji} =E3=83=82. >>> >> >> It has to be that =E3=83=82 is {di}, =E3=83=81 is {ti}, and {tci} is = =E3=83=84=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4, or it would >> break the rest of the proposal. >> > > You 1) split {ci} into =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4, but not {ti} into =E3=83=81=E3= =82=A4, and 2) set =E3=83=84 for {t}? Why > not split {ti} into =E3=83=81=E3=82=A4 so as to make the scheme more cons= istent? > > In your current proposal (sometimes phoneme-based, sometimes > syllable-based): > > c -- =E3=82=B7 > t -- =E3=83=84 > i -- =E3=82=A4 > > ci -- =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4 > ti -- =E3=83=81 (rather than more predictable =E3=83=84=E3=82=A4) > ({ti} can be either, =E3=83=81 just saves a character in comparison to =E3= =83=84=E3=82=A4.) > cti -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=81 (rather than more predictable =E3=82=B7=E3=83= =84=E3=82=A4) > tci -- =E3=83=84=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4 > > In my suggestion (always phoneme-based): > > c -- =E3=82=B7 > t -- =E3=83=81 > i -- =E3=82=A4 > > ci -- =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4 > ti -- =E3=83=81=E3=82=A4 > cti -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=81=E3=82=A4 > tci -- =E3=83=81=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4 > > > >> >> For example: Is =E3=83=82=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AB=E2=80=B3 {diklu} or {djiklu}= ? >> > > It could be even {dkr}. > > For {diklu}, maybe =E3=83=82=E3=82=A4=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AA=E3=82=A6. > For {djiklu}, maybe =E3=83=82=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A4=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AA=E3=82= =A6. > > > >> =E3=83=B2is pronounced {.y.} >>>> >>> To write {y'u}, use =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6. >>>> >>> >>> =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 is most probably {xau} or {'au}. >>> >> >>> {'u} is tricky. It would have to be distinguishable from {fu} and {xu}, >>> and both Katakana and Hiragana have none for {'u} and {xu}. =E3=83=95 i= s actually >>> {fu}, but you have assigned it to {fy}. >>> >> >> Because only =E3=83=95 is pronounced with the {fy.} sound, it is {fy.}. = So, {fa}, >> {fi}, {fu},{fe}, {fo} are =E3=83=95=E3=82=A2, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A4, =E3=83= =95=E3=82=A6, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A8, =E3=83=95=E3=82=AA. >> > > Right, that would be reasonable for a phoneme-based Kana scheme. > > > Since this means there is no 'hu', I decided on using =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 = to mean that. >> Doing a subscript =E3=82=A6 would be preferable. I considered =E3=83=92= =E3=82=A6, =E3=83=98=E3=82=A6, and =E3=83=9B=E3=82=A6 as >> well, and =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 just looks the best to me. >> > > Sounds fine to me too. > > > >> I also considered making =E3=83=98 be {y'y} instead of {y'e}, which woul= d mean >> that =E3=83=8F, =E3=83=92, and =E3=83=9B aren't used at all. >> > > =E3=83=98 is a single line and looks a bit counter-intuitive for {y'y}. W= hy not =E3=83=9B, > which has a visual symmetry analogous to {y'y} as a whole? > > > >> =E3=83=AF is pronounced {vy.}, and followed by a vowel, as in vu: =E3= =83=AF=E3=82=A6. >>>> >>> >>> =E3=83=AF is actually {ua}. =E3=83=AF=E3=82=A6 is {uau}. >>> >>> The foreign {v} sound in Japanese is typically transliterated as =E3=83= =B4, as in >>> =E3=83=A9=E3=83=B4 for "love". >>> >> >> I didn't know that. I also have no idea how to make that symbol with a >> standard U.S. keyboard, so.... >> > > In the Microsoft IME "full-width Katakana" mode, you get =E3=83=B4 by sim= ply typing > "vu". > > > >> The reason I chose =E3=83=AF for {vy.} is because we have =E3=82=A6=E3= =82=A2, so =E3=83=AF isn't needed >> for it. The =E3=82=A6" works for me. >> > > So, {ua} is =E3=82=A6=E3=82=A2, and {u.a} is =E3=82=A6=EF=BC=8E=E3=82=A2? > Yes, and {u'a} is =E3=82=A6=E3=83=8F=E3=82=A2, =E3=82=A6=E2=80=99=E3=82=A2,= or =E3=82=A6=E3=83=BC=E3=82=A2. > > > The 'k' kana with =C2=BA is pronounced {xy.} as in xrula: =E3=82=AF=C2= =BA=E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6=E3=83=A9=E2=80=B3=E3=82=A2. >>> >>> >>> That's an interesting idea. =E3=82=9C for a non-labial is never used in= formal >>> Japanese. It looks funny to the natives, so it sometimes gets used in m= anga >>> for comical expressions. >>> >> >> {xy.} and {ky.} are closely related, and =E3=82=AC, etc. are already use= d for >> {gV}, so that was my best idea. I know that's not what the maru symboliz= es. >> (It is called maru, yes?) >> > > Sounds fine. > > (Yes, it's called "maru" colloquially or "handakuten" linguistically.) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016e65b54dcb93cff048f61e2c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My idea behind this is that it would frequently save some space to use=20 the other kana, for instance, =E3=83=96=E3=82=A2=E3=82=B7=E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6= is bacru, but =E3=83=90=E3=82=B7=E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6 saves a=20 character. This is why =E3=83=81 is {ti}, not {t}. Maybe a chart is in orde= r? (The bold entries are the important ones.)

=E3=82=A2 - {a} =E3=82=A4 - {i}
=E3=82=A6 - {u}
=E3=82=A8 - {e}
=E3=82=AA - {o}

=E3=82=AB - {ka}
=E3=82=AD - {ki}
=E3= =82=AF - {ky.}, =E3=82=AF=E3=82=A6 - {ku}, =E3=82=AF=E3=82=A2 - {ka}, e= tc.
=E3=82=B1 - {ke}
=E3=82=B3 - {ko}

=E3=82=AC - {ga}
=E3=82=AE - {gi}
=E3=82=B0 - {gy.}, =E3=82=B0=E3=82=A6 - {gu}, =E3=82=B0=E3=82=A2 - {= ga}, etc.
=E3=82=B2 - {ge}
=E3=82=B4 - {go}

=E3=82=AB=C2=BA - {xa}
=E3=82=AD=C2=BA - {xi}
=E3=82=AF=C2=BA - {xy.}, =E3=82=AF=C2=BA=E3=82=A6 - {xu}, =E3=82=AF= =C2=BA=E3=82=A2 - {xa}, etc.
=E3=82=B1=C2=BA - {xe}
=E3=82=B3=C2=BA - {xo}

=E3=82=B5 - {sa}
=E3=82=B7 - {cy.},= =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A2, =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3 - {ca}, =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4 - {ci}, = =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A6, =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=C2=A0 - {cu}, =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A7, = =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A8 - {ce}, =E3=82=B7=E3=82=AA, =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A7 - {co}=E3=82=B9 - {sy.}, =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A6 - {su}, =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A4 - = {si}, =E3=82=B9=E3=82=A2 - {sa}, etc.
=E3=82=BB - {se}
=E3=82=BD - {s= o}

=E3=82=B6 - {za}
=E3=82=B8 - {jy.}, =E3=82=B8=E3=82=A2, =E3=82=B8=E3=83=A3 - {ja}, = =E3=82=B8=E3=82=A4 - {ji}, =E3=82=B8=E3=82=A6, =E3=82=B8=E3=83=A5 - {ju}, = =E3=82=B8=E3=82=A7, =E3=82=B8=E3=82=A8 - {je}, =E3=82=B8=E3=82=AA, =E3=82= =B8=E3=83=A7 - {jo}
=E3=82=BA - {zy.}, =E3=82=BA=E3=82=A6 - {zu}, =E3=82=BA=E3=82=A4 - {= zi}, =E3=82=BA=E3=82=A2 - {za}, etc.
=E3=82=BC - {ze}
=E3=82=BE - {zo}

=E3=82=BF - {ta}
=E3=83=81 - {ti}
=E3=83= =84 - {ty.}, =E3=83=84=E3=82=A6 - {tu}, =E3=83=84=E3=82=A2 - {ta}, etc.=
=E3=83=86 - {te}
=E3=83=88 - {to}

=E3=83=80 - {da}
=E3=83=82 - {di}
=E3=83=85 - {dy.}, =E3=83=85=E3=82=A6 - {du}, =E3=83=85=E3=82=A2 - {= da}, etc.
=E3=83=87 - {de}
=E3=83=89 - {do}

=E3=83=8A - {na}
=E3=83=8B - {ni}
=E3=83= =8C - {ny.}, =E3=83=8C=E3=82=A6 - {nu}, =E3=83=8C=E3=82=A2 - {na}, etc.=
=E3=83=8D - {ne}
=E3=83=8E - {no}

=E3=83=8F - {y'y.}
= =E3=83=92 - {y'y.}
=E3=83=95 - {fy.}, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A2 - {f= a}, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A4 - {fi}, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A6 - {fu}, =E3=83=95=E3=82= =A8 - {fe}, =E3=83=95=E3=82=AA - {fo}
=E3=83=98 - {y'y.}
=E3=83=9B - {y'y.}

(I believe doing the {hV} series this way causes the least problems.=20 Basically, any {hV} except =E3=83=95, which is {fy.}, acts as { ' } doe= s in the=20 standard orthography, so =E3=83=9F=E3=83=8F=E3=82=A2, =E3=83=9F=E3=83=92=E3= =82=A2, =E3=83=9F=E3=83=98=E3=82=A2, and =E3=83=9F=E3=83=9B=E3=82=A2, and= =20 variants such as =E3=83=A0=E3=82=A4=E3=83=8F=E3=82=A2, are all {mi'a}. = (It also might be better to just keep { ' }, as=20 in =E3=83=9F=E2=80=99=E3=82=A2. (Or possibly use =E3=83=BC, as in =E3=83=9F= =E3=83=BC=E3=82=A2, which unlike { ' }, works in the=20 vertical as well.)))

=E3=83=90 - {ba}
=E3=83=93 - {bi}
=E3=83=96 - {by.}, =E3=83=96=E3=82=A6 - {bu}, =E3=83=96=E3=82=A2 - {= ba}, etc.
=E3=83=99 - {be}
=E3=83=9C - {bo}

=E3=83=91 - {pa}
=E3=83=94 - {pi}
=E3=83=97 - {py.}, =E3=83=97=E3=82=A6 - {pu}, =E3=83=97=E3=82=A2 - {= pa}, etc.
=E3=83=9A - {pe}
=E3=83=9D - {po}

=E3=83=9E - {ma}
=E3=83=9F - {mi}
=E3=83=A0 - {my.}, =E3=83=A0=E3=82=A6 - {mu}, =E3=83=A0=E3=82=A2 - {= ma}, etc.
=E3=83=A1 - {me}
=E3=83=A2 - {mo}

=E3=83=A9 - {ra}
=E3=83=AA - {ri}
=E3=83=AB - {ry.}, =E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6 - {ru}, =E3=83=AB=E3=82=A2 - {= ra}, etc.
=E3=83=AC - {re}
=E3=83=AD - {ro}

=E3=83=A9=E2=80=B3 - {la}
=E3=83=AA=E2=80=B3 - {li}
=E3=83=AB=E2=80=B3 - {ly.}, =E3=83=AB=E2=80=B3=E3=82=A6 - {lu}, =E3= =83=AB=E2=80=B3=E3=82=A2 - {la}, etc.
=E3=83=AC=E2=80=B3 - {le}
=E3=83=AD=E2=80=B3 - {lo}

=E3=83=B4 - {vy.}, =E3=83=B4=E3=82=A2 - {va}, etc.

=E3=83=B2 - {y}

Basically, =E3=82=AB is (for an example), in this proposal, merely a way of= saving a character to write =E3=82=AF=E3=82=A2{ky.}{a}.

On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 5:25 AM, tijlan &= lt;jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 3 September 2010 01:12, Jonathan Jones <eye= onus@gmail.com> wrote:
All the "Cu" kana are pronounced = without the 'u' bit, as =E3=81=A7=E3=81=99 is pronounced 'des&#= 39;, in the proposal. As such, the =E3=82=A6 has to be there.

That's what i understood about the first option, =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A6= =E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF=E3=82=A6. You add =E3=82=A6 to =E3=82=B7 and =E3=82=AF, = since they are supposed to lack the /u/ bit, yes.

What appeared to me odd was that, in =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82= =AF=E3=82=A6, =E3=83=A5 is set for /u/, while also =E3=82=A6 is to represen= t /u/. Also, normally, the small =E3=83=A5 isn't used individually but = as a component of a semi-ligature like =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5. So, i thought yo= u meant the second alternative to be more of an alphabetic (phoneme-based) = rather than syllabic (syllable-based) solution for {cusku}, where the last = =E3=82=A6 would be redundant.


Otherwise, how would you kn= ow that =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF is pronounced {cusku} and not = {cusuku}?

You wouldn't. And a workaround = i can think of is to use the interpunct inherent to the Japanese input meth= ods:

=C2=A0cusku -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=83=BB=E3=82=AF=C2=A0cusuku -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=A5=E3=82=B9=E3=82=AF


=E3=82=B8 <= /span>is pronounced {jy.} and follows the same rules as =E3=82=B7, as in djica: =E3=83=85=E3=82=B8=E3=82=A4=E3=82=B7=E3=83=A3.


or =E3=83=82=E3=82= =B7=E3=83=A3. {tci} can unambiguously be =E3=83=81, and {dji} =E3=83=82.

It has to be that =E3=83=82 is=C2=A0 {di}, =E3= =83=81 is {ti}, and {tci} is =E3=83=84=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4, or it would break= the rest of the proposal.

You 1= ) split {ci} into =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4, but not {ti} into =E3=83=81=E3=82=A4,= and 2) set =E3=83=84 for {t}? Why not split {ti} into =E3=83=81=E3=82=A4 s= o as to make the scheme more consistent?

In your current proposal (sometimes phoneme-based, sometimes syllable-b= ased):

c -- =E3=82=B7
t -- =E3=83=84
i -- =E3=82=A4

ci -- =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4
ti -- =E3=83=81 (rather than more predictable =E3=83=84=E3=82=A4)
=
({ti} can be either, =E3=83=81 just saves a charact= er in comparison to =E3=83=84=E3=82=A4.)
cti -- =E3=82=B7=E3=83=81 (rather than more predictable =E3=82=B7=E3=83=84= =E3=82=A4)
tci -- =E3=83=84=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4

In my suggestion (always phoneme-= based):

c -- =E3=82=B7
t -- =E3=83=81
i -- =E3=82=A4

ci= -- =E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4
ti -- =E3=83=81=E3=82=A4
cti -- =E3=82=B7=E3= =83=81=E3=82=A4
tci -- =E3=83=81=E3=82=B7=E3=82=A4

=C2=A0

For example: Is =E3=83=82=E3=82=AF=E3= =83=AB=E2=80=B3 {diklu} or {djiklu}?

It could be even {dkr}.

For {diklu}, maybe =E3=83=82=E3=82=A4= =E3=82=AF=E3=83=AA=E3=82=A6.
For {djiklu}, maybe =E3=83=82=E3=82=B8=E3= =82=A4=E3=82=AF=E3=83=AA=E3=82=A6.

=C2=A0

=E3=83=B2is pronounced {.y.}

To write {y'u}, use =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6.<= /p>


=E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 is most probably {xau} or= {'au}.

{'u} is tricky. It would have to be distinguishable = from {fu} and {xu}, and both Katakana and Hiragana have none for {'u} a= nd {xu}. =E3=83=95 is actually {fu}, but you have assigned it to {fy}.
=C2=A0
Because only =E3=83=95= is pronounced with the {fy.} sound, it is {fy.}. So, {fa}, {fi}, {fu},{fe}= , {fo} are =E3=83=95=E3=82=A2, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A4, =E3=83=95=E3=82=A6, =E3= =83=95=E3=82=A8, =E3=83=95=E3=82=AA.
Right, that would be reasonable for a phoneme-based Kana scheme.


Since this means there is n= o 'hu', I decided on using =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 to mean that. Doing a= subscript =E3=82=A6 would be preferable. I considered =E3=83=92=E3=82=A6, = =E3=83=98=E3=82=A6, and =E3=83=9B=E3=82=A6 as well, and =E3=83=8F=E3=82=A6 = just looks the best to me.

Sounds fine to me too.

=C2=A0
I also considered making =E3=83=98 be {y'y} instead of {y'e}, which= would mean that =E3=83=8F, =E3=83=92, and =E3=83=9B aren't used at all= .

=E3=83=98 is a single line and= looks a bit counter-intuitive for {y'y}. Why not =E3=83=9B, which has = a visual symmetry analogous to {y'y} as a whole?

=C2=A0

=E3=83=AF <= /span>is pronounced {vy.}, and followed by a vowel, as in vu: =E3=83=AF=E3=82=A6<= /font>.


=E3=83=AF is= actually {ua}. =E3=83=AF=E3=82=A6 is {uau}.

The foreign {v} sound in Japanese is typically transliterated as =E3=83=B4,= as in =E3=83=A9=E3=83=B4 for "love".

I didn't know that. I also have no idea how to make tha= t symbol with a standard U.S. keyboard, so....

In the Microsoft IME "full-wid= th Katakana" mode, you get =E3=83=B4 by simply typing "vu".<= br>
=C2=A0
The reason I chose =E3=83=AF for {vy.} is because we have =E3=82=A6=E3=82= =A2, so =E3=83=AF isn't needed for it. The =E3=82=A6" works for me= .

So, {ua} is =E3=82=A6=E3=82=A2= , and {u.a} is =E3=82=A6=EF=BC=8E=E3=82=A2?

Yes, and {u'a} is =E3=82=A6=E3=83=8F=E3=82=A2, =E3=82=A6=E2=80=99= =E3=82=A2, or =E3=82=A6=E3=83=BC=E3=82=A2.

The 'k' kana with =C2=BA is pronounced {xy.} as in= xrula: =E3=82=AF=C2=BA=E3=83=AB=E3=82=A6=E3=83=A9=E2=80=B3=E3=82=A2.


That's an i= nteresting idea. =E3=82=9C for a non-labial is never used in formal Japanes= e. It looks funny to the natives, so it sometimes gets used in manga for co= mical expressions.

{xy.} and {ky.} are c= losely related, and =E3=82=AC, etc. are already used for {gV}, so that was = my best idea. I know that's not what the maru symbolizes. (It is called= maru, yes?)

Sounds fine.

(Yes, it's = called "maru" colloquially or "handakuten" linguistical= ly.)

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