From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCD8ofkBBoE_hieQQ@googlegroups.com Sat Sep 04 00:45:23 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OrnR9-0005cW-ND; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 00:45:23 -0700 Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17sf368671fxm.16 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 00:45:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5c/06PhUMGPYFPlh0jHBGLIxU4CdOxrZIzw/aMbpx18=; b=H/eEW8LLI6XmqSuKoH2Vlqw1WzJCRjS1NJPtZj2qjjOfs4c/25a6YytRRNi+NWYg+H OPzwaZtjtpZJUtb1LytxfR6VrYLXGbS2AdkEwIzb65v1AfiafCUlmbSi9bYWFDgVvHBp n2eLAgoiTPnutD1Nh2382LnBz2r1A5jMsKWdY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=3rLck0pcyzUzqvaRqvRiwxCN8tFb51FlW27H1hnJsPxsij9nBl4ufqJKaUBopTnIbV fNuf8yvIpXBMpb30Ti0xQRuPuro1H6WJfHwuc47RzKHMiaIL5XZ0c83PAME9WKdua42o 7G1FBxJkefeDCzH/DKAzgUCQ40NNS14PiUOeU= Received: by 10.223.4.139 with SMTP id 11mr60954far.9.1283586307013; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 00:45:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.32.142 with SMTP id c14ls595633fad.2.p; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 00:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.105.80 with SMTP id s16mr98260fao.21.1283586305942; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 00:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.105.80 with SMTP id s16mr98259fao.21.1283586305866; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 00:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f46.google.com (mail-bw0-f46.google.com [209.85.214.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p28si712090fak.1.2010.09.04.00.45.04; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 00:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.46; Received: by bwz11 with SMTP id 11so3191971bwz.33 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 00:45:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.49.11 with SMTP id t11mr1327415bkf.64.1283586304600; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 00:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.98.71 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Sep 2010 00:45:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <022fd822-ce8f-4d77-84c5-f828612bb81f@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com> References: <022fd822-ce8f-4d77-84c5-f828612bb81f@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 03:45:04 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] .i ki'u lo cribe mi na sipna From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325556b62b96b13048f6a396d --000325556b62b96b13048f6a396d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 .u'i tu'a mi krinu roda ta'onai hmmm, if I wanted to say "it is not the case that: I discuss because I do not want to" I would probably try something awkward like: jitfa fa lo nu mi cusku ki'u mi djica I see what you're saying though. Does the {na} apply to the selbri only or to the entire bridi (including the bai sumti). I'm not really sure. mu'omi'e cribe On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 3:32 AM, tomoj wrote: > Consider {.i mi na cusku bau la .lojban.}. This clearly means "it is > not the case that: I discuss in Lojban". There appears to be some > confusion, though, with some BAI (natlang's fault, I think). Consider > also {.i mi na cusku ki'u lo nu mi na djica}. This looks like "I don't > discuss because I don't want to", but in fact (I claim) means "it is > not the case that: I discuss because I don't want to" (vagueness > aside). > > The corpus has plenty of examples of 'BAI ma' used with {na}: > > 15 Aug 2003 14:36:23 mu'i ma do na nelci loi kabri > 22 Mar 2005 17:12:37 ki'u ma le mi cmene na cmima > 24 Mar 2005 07:39:45 ki'u ma la norsmu cu na spuda > 05 Jul 2005 14:40:59 mu'i ma do na se mikce doi bancus > 14 Apr 2009 06:58:15 ki'u ma na djica > 10 Aug 2009 01:30:05 ri'a ma la'e di'u na gendra > > If my claim above is correct, {lo cribe} is a correct answer to all > these questions. > > We can use a periphrasis like {.i ma krinu lo nu na ...}, or simply > use {na'e} if it's appropriate. Are there any other nice ways around > this? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000325556b62b96b13048f6a396d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .u'i tu'a mi krinu roda

ta'onai
hm= mm, if I wanted to say "it is not the case that: I discuss because I d= o not want to" I would probably try something awkward like:

jitfa fa lo nu mi cusku ki'u mi djica

I see what you're saying though. =A0Does the {na} apply to the s= elbri only or to the entire bridi (including the bai sumti). =A0I'm not= really sure.

mu'omi'e cribe

On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 3:32 AM, tomoj <thomasjack@gmail.com> wrote:
Consider {.i mi na cusku bau la .lojban.}. This clearly means "it is not the case that: I discuss in Lojban". There appears to be some
confusion, though, with some BAI (natlang's fault, I think). Consider also {.i mi na cusku ki'u lo nu mi na djica}. This looks like "I d= on't
discuss because I don't want to", but in fact (I claim) means &quo= t;it is
not the case that: I discuss because I don't want to" (vagueness aside).

The corpus has plenty of examples of 'BAI ma' used with {na}:

15 Aug 2003 14:36:23 <rlpowell> mu'i ma do na nelci loi kabri
22 Mar 2005 17:12:37 <bancus> ki'u ma le mi cmene na cmima
24 Mar 2005 07:39:45 <Broca> ki'u ma la norsmu cu na spuda
05 Jul 2005 14:40:59 <Eimi> mu'i ma do na se mikce doi bancus
14 Apr 2009 06:58:15 <timonator> ki'u ma na djica
10 Aug 2009 01:30:05 <gunkamanti> ri'a ma la'e di'u na ge= ndra

If my claim above is correct, {lo cribe} is a correct answer to all
these questions.

We can use a periphrasis like {.i ma krinu lo nu na ...}, or simply
use {na'e} if it's appropriate. Are there any other nice ways aroun= d
this?

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