From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDk0YnkBBoEi8r1cA@googlegroups.com Sat Sep 04 08:42:47 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Orut7-000510-Lg; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 08:42:46 -0700 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf726896wyb.16 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 08:42:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PVqkfAhdlQZh1y9bZKRsVc6/IqKVTGfO6E19dbWGpY4=; b=CEfP4b2ksehXMHgvx+ORv4owdJO/2usW9dMM1/bAZvItfrAmoOk31hRevTki+IiDeI x0lWLh9XEH8HaqAgD02lCfkXT/sdvBYPEjX1zjG3ApWwb0Gg1IEb1mOyNsFGvDrmythS Zmtx4k5sUrl0qRbEWhwIGXNIJZfGOwxWcaG3c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=hZQyAO4xCnvz1q9J8wPFibnwIyLarj23Bg5T4X0BkAENLz1TeSaDwN/Ols3Oa32oyp vnu97ZGviFr1SDUf/WSteihHwWKDKpxeMlfxrK35Y2pjwHchDsPqsITP7XnIRs+Zyypt UyLTzhW5hEgdaCSMY8LaZBv0eJXXLnmBbAnOU= Received: by 10.216.145.132 with SMTP id p4mr408775wej.5.1283614948941; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 08:42:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.82.133 with SMTP id b5ls850667wbl.3.p; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 08:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.141.129 with SMTP id m1mr101696wbu.3.1283614946017; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 08:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.141.129 with SMTP id m1mr101695wbu.3.1283614945949; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 08:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f43.google.com (mail-ww0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x33si1082824wbs.5.2010.09.04.08.42.24; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 08:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.43; Received: by wwi14 with SMTP id 14so1838242wwi.24 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 08:42:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.157.138 with SMTP id b10mr1055448wbx.13.1283614942430; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 08:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.145.147 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Sep 2010 08:42:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <022fd822-ce8f-4d77-84c5-f828612bb81f@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com> References: <022fd822-ce8f-4d77-84c5-f828612bb81f@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 12:42:22 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] .i ki'u lo cribe mi na sipna From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 4:32 AM, tomoj wrote: > Consider {.i mi na cusku bau la .lojban.}. This clearly means "it is > not the case that: I discuss in Lojban". There appears to be some > confusion, though, with some BAI (natlang's fault, I think). Consider > also {.i mi na cusku ki'u lo nu mi na djica}. This looks like "I don't > discuss because I don't want to", but in fact (I claim) means "it is > not the case that: I discuss because I don't want to" (vagueness > aside). You are right. This is mentioned in CLL, see example 2.14: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c15/s2.html > The corpus has plenty of examples of 'BAI ma' used with {na}: > > 15 Aug 2003 14:36:23 mu'i ma do na nelci loi kabri > 22 Mar 2005 17:12:37 ki'u ma le mi cmene na cmima > 24 Mar 2005 07:39:45 ki'u ma la norsmu cu na spuda > 05 Jul 2005 14:40:59 mu'i ma do na se mikce doi bancus > 14 Apr 2009 06:58:15 ki'u ma na djica > 10 Aug 2009 01:30:05 ri'a ma la'e di'u na gendra > > If my claim above is correct, {lo cribe} is a correct answer to all > these questions. I would accept those as correct, because the modal is placed before the negation, and I take the scope of an operator that comes before to be wider than that of the operator that comes later. I don't take the "na" bridi operator as always having scope over other bridi operators. The special rule given in CLL for "na" just doesn't work. Consider for example: mu'i ma do na nelci loi kabri gi'e na se mikce How do you deal with the special na-rule there? > We can use a periphrasis like {.i ma krinu lo nu na ...}, or simply > use {na'e} if it's appropriate. Are there any other nice ways around > this? If you want to put the "ki'u" after the "na", then you can use "na'e" as you say, which is selbri-internal, or you can use a separate bridi: "na broda .iki'ubo mo" mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. 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