From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCnrMnkBBoE1IB9wA@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 16 10:39:19 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OwIQG-0004Pz-Gw; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:39:18 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf432313wwe.16 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:38:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ue6C6P5GYPESP0NIslTBhkdE8o8h5GotMKAH/tWMB10=; b=HqXw4m9UmYoPAsPLOftjJxWrKWqXpcFCaEtJlvK+U6nZDLWS5T4dQTUdPFpfZ81XLL L3Gbat5LOFkC0NBvWEMnd18/INWkDjH8QNn3brSw+79gmm8oUO7P1nSMpWeHZvrZdpE4 kXkt+PVdvIJVfDaytx5SUglS28TCwRfdd0Aoc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YM+aid1R3rn3A0LTn8lPRWWzfbGcrKfR0KhhK+BNj4f2yI9nblz1NQfeikqPwVWoaI zHKKea+9AzmMGm4jfuf8i21r9tGJv9g5skdzPFnDAEG0SyCNgp9tWfi2hEai4clBlmsi wXnJOqGUaypVBsA5tC837mMbzpCOaG7ZzhQY0= Received: by 10.216.145.9 with SMTP id o9mr851757wej.0.1284658727299; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.237.134 with SMTP id y6ls1084777weq.2.p; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.150.170 with SMTP id z42mr408490wej.10.1284658726221; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.150.170 with SMTP id z42mr408489wej.10.1284658726209; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f174.google.com (mail-wy0-f174.google.com [74.125.82.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id r4si1031206wec.6.2010.09.16.10.38.45; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.174; Received: by wyf22 with SMTP id 22so1583379wyf.19 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:38:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.153.211 with SMTP id l19mr2996446wbw.224.1284658725002; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.151.203 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 10:38:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <860512.99501.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4C8DF3A5.3040702@lojban.org> <898077.40849.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <860512.99501.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 14:38:44 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 2:05 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > Sympathetic and empathetic pains (etc.) are very real; a person experienc= e them > and can express this experience, perhaps in a way different from a person= al > pain. =A0His expression of this pain might even include a recognition of = whose > pain he is sym/empathizing with (though this is getting a little cloudy) = -- even > if that person is fictional, unknown, and so on. =A0 But, in using 'da'oi= uu > Lindar', =A0is the speaker actually experiencing a happiness that picks u= p on > Lindar's? =A0The examples suggest not. Whether the person is actually experiencing the emotion they express depends on whether the expression is honest and straightforward, or is fake, mocking, ironic, etc. Sometimes only the person saying it can really tell whether they are actually feeling what they express or not, and sometimes maybe not even them. The example from selkik was: la .daniel. joi mi pu finti zo da'oi .o'o nai sai da'oi so'i jbopre noi na'e nelci lo nu za'e ma'orfi'i "Daniel and I came up with "da' oi" [Grunt from the many lojbanists who don't like 'cmavo-crafting']." Obviously he didn't actually hear anyone grunt. He's just putting himself in their shoes and grunting for them. I think that's a legitimate use of an attitudinal. >=A0The point remains that UI can be usefully > uttered only by the person having the emotion (etc.), whatever its source= . =A0So > talk of other-centric UI reains absurd; the center is always on the exper= iencer > expressing his experience, whatever its source. We probably disagree on the terminology only, not the substance of the matt= er. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.