From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCQ9snkBBoEBIUpeg@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 16 13:16:45 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OwKse-0007VP-S4; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:16:45 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf476950wwe.16 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:16:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=t8fsTjyfDUIeMi4tN/C5/EMAiEGm0Cd1F/BhHJpNMyg=; b=ldQBjylXUAJ0IxaD52jPEctvABiKBMfQp1nYpjrESB8tG6YmA691Um5quyoOoNnovv 3ehcltCvEdJe9bs82MU7ndBqIYmRIYuXW75I33YZk/mpxzJFvgVf4kwGuWLb4fwt9PBh aaJM034qIYthAq+LFolFvlbWr89WuS/XQFb14= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JgiE1AAith9y49WSPLGFdzqlGIrhr2+E1Oshhc4wyQ3C9P2DiT5qPlN4ugNGF8o4nN BMTU3Ecid4/XWHhSqrV4FPSkLhwik/YuGfFvPyHaQ9ee/rYHU9ztujcOmX6OzovxkIdL C2UCoLnpRq3kn2opD78Jv41hv8Lz0AZ+FYKzk= Received: by 10.216.145.132 with SMTP id p4mr929984wej.5.1284668176236; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:16:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.39.10 with SMTP id d10ls20427wbe.2.p; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.30.129 with SMTP id k1mr198145wea.6.1284668174551; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.30.129 with SMTP id k1mr198144wea.6.1284668174522; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f50.google.com (mail-ww0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v4si1079078weq.9.2010.09.16.13.16.13; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.50; Received: by mail-ww0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 17so89534wwi.19 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:16:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.30.34 with SMTP id s34mr3364229wbc.8.1284668170760; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.151.203 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:16:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <364433.94354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4C8DF3A5.3040702@lojban.org> <364433.94354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:16:10 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 5:02 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > Here are some signs that what is intended here is not expressions of empa= thetic > emotions (etc.) > 1. =A0show no signs that the speaker, whoever that may be, shares Lindar'= s pity. > It is translated by a non-restrictive relative clause. > 2. =A0Ditto, though here I suppose this could be a sharing, but the trans= lation > appears to rule that out. > 3. =A0Ditto. =A0Here, of course, the speaker has no grounds for even disp= laced > pride, given the conditions on pride. =A0Maybe happiness or some such. = =A0But that > is not what is indicated nor how the whole is translated. > 4. =A0Ditto. =A0Again no signs of empathy, nothing expressive, just a rel= ative > clause. > Did I mention that relative clauses are the wrong sort of things to be he= re? Right, you are complaining about the sloppy English translations. I suggest these translations instead: lo verba .ui da'oi mamta cu kelci "The kid (yay for mom!) is playing." do finti lo melbi .o'a da'oi do "You made something beautiful (go you!)." lo mlatu cu citka lo kukte .oi da'oi cipni "The cat eats something delicious (ouch for the bird!)." So yes, the English translations were poor (and I'm not claiming mine are ideal, they just highlight the particular issue you are looking at more). That does not invalidate the Lojban though, it just shows that translation is hard. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.