From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDGrcrkBBoEVbvPPA@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 16 15:14:46 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OwMj4-0001jV-80; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:14:46 -0700 Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9sf1628118gxk.16 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:14:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=aW7FK2pEjacAVyvvWqRozmlIKj06dR4PsMopLAwYc4A=; b=yaif7JDODp/vjDLxcUIFVWffQKNvW8RfCJRuysMDX49G7BpI9Qtzx8Cdwy3hscT3jB CXFGCFKXFitsdSGW9gVuMImlVOgMSZZdSCRf4UJPSe01Twoy/gfwSi1RHK3LdgA/rW22 r6xYH07Gs9bTcmAhI/0a3w1P1X2b6zHgN6EyY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dMDsgrHg/qKcgoqPY3sDLZlJVyZmdDr/ZRL5pzUHOmS58Z94W5JroXVOcj+kZq2SsK 5PTkqBs8c1tRn2sSl57TGPncDYIjgxT8T2ph7064+2mKSsxpGCJ+4HcVaDE0FGgSAFLw 30tWDLY7+K5rOXY2UJ+P+dCgU4fz672v68Ens= Received: by 10.101.36.20 with SMTP id o20mr192357anj.38.1284675270206; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.185.34 with SMTP id m34ls1061763anp.7.p; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.175.36 with SMTP id c36mr2613275anp.58.1284675269418; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.175.36 with SMTP id c36mr2613270anp.58.1284675269036; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id x34si2622000ana.11.2010.09.16.15.14.27; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 96016 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Sep 2010 22:14:27 -0000 Message-ID: <575987.94184.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: V7F9J3QVM1kU_FJrXs_vs66te1q2fYgZK_p2wqY0iOXl49p 0y8rp2gNWLc3yY.ExfSaDfTT1abW2Q8dVxguX4MJ.rviq4RP_0cn.1efLXMO NzoFAId0WRoBB2gwgyIFBLxUv4e0uHCQn.1897lEZEDROP3kaSV5rTDp08tA TU3VySg4GtCPL_KLwb9QxxSf.txmRHDxmXFIK3QHxNntBvEgHdstsdnruTel SX2iUl_a4btBhGD5WEc42EvDT0mYHkGK6XmUDBEs54Szy4JV0.efIuGLBs2Y 1JPlSmwUCQPXA0cP.I4nnE4ZcWO1CPcNwvN2uwTyf_LP9jwQaWEK4XY81Mlt 1Gll3ZaTezdM- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:14:27 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4C8DF3A5.3040702@lojban.org> <364433.94354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 15:14:27 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And for 1? These are not, after all, translations but rather part of an ef= fort=20 to teach and justify a new usage. One expects such to be fdone with releva= nt=20 care. As you not, acceptable translations that make the point are easily c= ome=20 by (I am a little uncertain about 'yay for Mom', which doesn't seems more t= o=20 applaud than co-rejoice, but that is aesthetics). As I said, 1 does not ob= vious=20 lends itself to even these explanations, but does -- like the rest of them,= fit=20 in with a propositional interpretation, which is also fairly regularly ment= ioned=20 subliminally (it is hard to talk overtly about some things in Lojspeak) in= =20 earlier comments in this ane earlier related topic. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 3:16:10 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 5:02 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > Here are some signs that what is intended here is not expressions of=20 empathetic > emotions (etc.) > 1. show no signs that the speaker, whoever that may be, shares Lindar's = pity. > It is translated by a non-restrictive relative clause. > 2. Ditto, though here I suppose this could be a sharing, but the transla= tion > appears to rule that out. > 3. Ditto. Here, of course, the speaker has no grounds for even displace= d > pride, given the conditions on pride. Maybe happiness or some such. But= that > is not what is indicated nor how the whole is translated. > 4. Ditto. Again no signs of empathy, nothing expressive, just a relativ= e > clause. > Did I mention that relative clauses are the wrong sort of things to be he= re? Right, you are complaining about the sloppy English translations. I suggest these translations instead: lo verba .ui da'oi mamta cu kelci "The kid (yay for mom!) is playing." do finti lo melbi .o'a da'oi do "You made something beautiful (go you!)." lo mlatu cu citka lo kukte .oi da'oi cipni "The cat eats something delicious (ouch for the bird!)." So yes, the English translations were poor (and I'm not claiming mine are ideal, they just highlight the particular issue you are looking at more). That does not invalidate the Lojban though, it just shows that translation is hard. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.