From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCD28rkBBoEKcZf0w@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 16 16:51:48 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OwOEy-0001PO-AL; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:51:48 -0700 Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9sf1676612gxk.16 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:51:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MZtzGXBVeVLWLwrPr0KYcfRTsCTDcLGo5GFSzngASU4=; b=CLnbvowwAgLwHgYC/sbEQ3qauqGBXG/WAlvoi39m0HgLMvSBfo0V02b4sB55vIk0xi 8y69EmUhtFpWvdu31VP8i/o71XFBJby23Favil/1X5VR0iIYQ48/TXfQy21mo1p1YLiW RpjtkmW0iJV5O/VRuJOQWJpmNy2AStEs0voNs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=XsPsmXIRUKoKeJquPTUsQyR0vHDHZmqu3bCm5szSbIJaqQDvrJuZypUUyPpwRq0p6X PBp2ERrkv9nfJInqGrtGkyL6ME7ZEhCarZi33cD8E4WOj4C8xf7qh20I5/CtMVzVt4Jt KPZxlSGY1SpPO45vZRgmw3k7jBdv45eSYFC74= Received: by 10.101.100.12 with SMTP id c12mr124983anm.65.1284681091890; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.131.11 with SMTP id i11ls521109ann.5.p; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.69.13 with SMTP id w13mr3357587ank.41.1284680893435; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.69.13 with SMTP id w13mr3351871ank.41.1284680683659; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id q4si2689174ane.6.2010.09.16.16.44.42; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 63008 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Sep 2010 23:44:42 -0000 Message-ID: <997710.60999.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: j_Gnt98VM1lipUb_8ngB4p.PY6Ar5v.tbF90pL2voEwFZuh JttjEVsV46OR_PdxGnJNM0nUFPgAs8KFHe4Cjk5b9sI660y5eQ1qEDvP1uN_ zIfv0mLwORloK.px7pztmqrmzi1NYAjkFgRsvozA0ac333mA.Ol3LsKECXdg 3dqp8CF3.s4ikfbHZShSVZvUgSFuKivjbkpXrOUh1g6qrxSBThkkl5y8moz2 ThTTtrjCP8uAh34xit71DUaqJwLzIos_fu9X87AM5Pqf_u7HpP8wetRfZvNF leJqYoEx53sEfktNBWvgJTIFd1PEzJf8eXN4nslUQR6DkxqVJkXRe0VdjTT9 G5FX2SQUtqyesDfbB2CoIsUkvQBlHMuE7_dGI4w-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:44:41 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <729457.38076.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4C8DF3A5.3040702@lojban.org> <364433.94354.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <575987.94184.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:44:41 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do wish you would try to justify it, since justification often leads to= =20 clarification of what is being claimed. So far as I can tell, empathetic= =20 emotions (etc.) are not all that common (nor all that rare). They are commo= n=20 enough that I am surprised that, in the gazillion different ways of doing= =20 expressions, that made their way into CLL, this possibility was missed, Th= ey=20 are rare enough that I suppose the creators can be excused for missing them= .=20 They are also common enough that we do have fairly standard ways for expre= ssing=20 some of them (see xorxes' earlier examples), so the misleading translations= are=20 all the more unfortunate (he doesn't succeed with number 1, where I still d= on't=20 anywhere detect the pity -- even bogus -- in the speaker). Still, if used= =20 carefully, this is a welcome addition to Lojban and its ongoing attempt to = cover=20 every damned possibility. ----- Original Message ---- From: Stela Selckiku To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 6:29:59 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: other-centric UI On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 7:14 PM, John E Clifford wrote: >> And for 1? These are not, after all, translations but rather part of an= =20 >effort >> to teach and justify a new usage. One expects such to be fdone with >> relevant care. 2010/9/16 Jorge Llamb=EDas responded: > Not everyone is consciously aware of such linguistic subtleties, so > the fault was not necessarily carelessness. For the record I was just speaking very casually because I'm among seemingly intelligent friends who I'd expect to easily understand this intuitive and simple cmavo given some basic examples. Also, I'm not trying to "justify" anything, any of you can use or approve of "da'oi" or not as you wish. I do think you'll need to understand it in order to understand what people say in Lojban going forward, though, because I think it's extremely necessary and useful and so I'd expect it to be increasingly common, especially now that we've had this public discussion of it. Oh, and it's not a "new" usage either, BTW, it just hadn't yet escaped into mailing-list-ese from IRC-ese. :) I guess according to its jbovlaste page it's been around for a year now: http://jbovlaste.lojban.org//dict/da%27oi mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.