From lojban+bncCNTPpI2KGxCSsMvkBBoEoXV3jQ@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 16 19:53:33 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OwR4g-0007IN-BI; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:53:33 -0700 Received: by pzk7 with SMTP id 7sf185323pzk.16 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:53:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=KImWf6K1do52nLxOfsTPbhwQ8AeNnf3njwPzx6noqLg=; b=g78IHuakDL3pG/T5KPIxF1yrcRXpnz9rg+t+sxXpz6VXZrP4bW8GDrft/mQgjd9Lz9 OZNFvOfehzPL5tA7n4fRaNS/7MURmwKFMwItlTra7F1HQfHB1FcME2gN+jfA/fpVvNZ6 ozMzpEH1nrULuD9hxFIlSeSVrqRuHC3dUEW/I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; b=k3FibcNJ/PYUCVdadgjWnb+kUPCAYZn9jemyZMyKA2cX/egv2/d7Unuff+nHiba3Pv iCoJAzki34WaWyUYouI35MWKBJZRRgUjs1kDoBppoBbjF0A/Xa+d19lfoxW+DPoHpaox Ts9QetX5P+e2OD2hCoEqdocq41qASh6H9/G7s= Received: by 10.142.247.28 with SMTP id u28mr214538wfh.37.1284691986649; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:53:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.117.2 with SMTP id p2ls3182239wfc.1.p; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.143.9 with SMTP id q9mr803074wfd.25.1284691985999; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.143.9 with SMTP id q9mr803072wfd.25.1284691985967; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e3si1969526wfh.3.2010.09.16.19.53.05; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.123 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.123; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=uqrTLNeDnnHeEEhzWge2W4XpJs90mGmxJDRCKFYUEn4= c=1 sm=0 a=mXA3uIxnEPUA:10 a=wPDyFdB5xvgA:10 a=Q9fys5e9bTEA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:17 a=LXL8el5rAAAA:8 a=znlXlGv5AAAA:8 a=YsLU365klYZKoYbAsngA:9 a=YmrcVF3ZjLNl4lBx0LBdIssLV7QA:4 a=PUjeQqilurYA:10 a=wB1t9cny2c4A:10 a=JMZQ8Kqndz0A:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.176.118.168 Received: from [75.176.118.168] ([75.176.118.168:45635] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 25/4E-11162-118D29C4; Fri, 17 Sep 2010 02:53:05 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 065B5ED80 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:53:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Naming: Borrowed versus Native Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:52:24 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201009162252.27786.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.123 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday 16 September 2010 17:07:16 Jonathan Jones wrote: > Reposted from a thread on the jbovlaste group: > > My entire argument regarding Lojban names for things is as follows: > > 1) Borrowing words from other languages (fu'ivla) is a Bad Thing ( > > http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/Bad-Thing.html) and should only be do= ne > > when there is NO OTHER WAY. This means ANY language, including Latin. > > > > 2) Fluent jbopre are expected to be able to understand any gismu, cmavo= , > > lujvo, etc. that they see without the need to consult a dictionary. A fluent jbopre who is ignorant of geology and paleontology won't=20 understand "bakrycedra". One who has never heard of a plonebrespa may=20 erroneously think it's a turtle whose neck folds to fit in the shell. > > 3) Specifically regarding creatures: Nearly every creature with a name > > has a *descriptive* common name, and all Linnean names of things are > > descriptive, in the Latin language. Ardipithecus ramidus is an extinct hominid. "Ramidus" looks like a Latin wo= rd=20 meaning "branchy", but in this name it isn't. Both "ardi" and "ramid" are= =20 from the Afar language. "Pongo" (orangutan) is from some Bantu=20 word "impungu". In "Netta peposaca" (a kind of duck), "peposaca" is=20 Guaran=ED. "Selmes" (a mousebird) is an anagram of "Messel" (in Hessen,=20 Germany), where it was found. For lots more examples, see=20 www.curioustaxonomy.net. > > 4) As such, I see no reason why a descriptive cmene should not be > > preferable to a borrowed foreign cmene in *every* case. > > I am hereby inviting discussion, critique, etc. regarding the above from > anyone who wishes to. Icelandic is one of the languages whose regulators are most zealous about= =20 native words. The word for elephant (f=EDll) is from Arabic, though it's ea= sy=20 to make a short description of an elephant that is sufficient to identify i= t=20 as such. "ens=EDm" (enzyme) is from Greek, though there is a native-looking= =20 synonym. "tomb=F3la" (carslanu cunterjvi) is from Italian. Pierre --=20 When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.