From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCyvcvkBBoEm0O4FQ@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 16 20:21:55 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OwRW7-0000Re-Ix; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:21:55 -0700 Received: by ywp4 with SMTP id 4sf345737ywp.16 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:21:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=iCtHUJnJW0J0s/UbvcJ3A9L9QQ0WHh4DkyUFXxFLm8Y=; b=Ua/1VhLobbZQ6eLtfwFsAQL767HrfTv23+GbMe/O0RFgsOH3/kekyO0+unztxvOjYR 6nmsX5dtTy+idVK0em3WZ/ptnL8PXSRfYQODDm64amhgr5koLjaYdGTXqvxvq8fZwITA JuOm9+zZxPPkECzxnyarwOn/xTHJzDsk8EzKk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=qF1sQzNXo5ivFf5PYZI5wIObBR9OsUo8tsW12cVEUzuVsEy9NgXtPu6DkHYmcUGsJY xPU/I5hGrk2ui7YK57j2XRoIYwmFhY/9A3hp7ormme9pWRZ8lxtpt5yr8L+EXzya6XwH giUkrYJTA81RpWGirsBVS1TaZaHOdqXt7oZnY= Received: by 10.90.101.5 with SMTP id y5mr563028agb.58.1284693682876; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:21:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.125.77 with SMTP id x13ls1079753ibr.1.p; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.191.68 with SMTP id dl4mr539201ibb.18.1284693681221; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.191.68 with SMTP id dl4mr539200ibb.18.1284693681168; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f176.google.com (mail-iw0-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id e25si2424866ibk.7.2010.09.16.20.21.20; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.176; Received: by iwn9 with SMTP id 9so2240789iwn.35 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:21:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.172.205 with SMTP id m13mr4582099ibz.35.1284693679197; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.207.84 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:21:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201009162252.27786.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <201009162252.27786.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 21:21:19 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Naming: Borrowed versus Native From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=005045015a1864d03904906c0e8c --005045015a1864d03904906c0e8c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 8:52 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Thursday 16 September 2010 17:07:16 Jonathan Jones wrote: > > Reposted from a thread on the jbovlaste group: > > > > My entire argument regarding Lojban names for things is as follows: > > > 1) Borrowing words from other languages (fu'ivla) is a Bad Thing ( > > > http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/Bad-Thing.html) and should only be > done > > > when there is NO OTHER WAY. This means ANY language, including Latin. > > > > > > 2) Fluent jbopre are expected to be able to understand any gismu, > cmavo, > > > lujvo, etc. that they see without the need to consult a dictionary. > > A fluent jbopre who is ignorant of geology and paleontology won't > understand "bakrycedra". One who has never heard of a plonebrespa may > erroneously think it's a turtle whose neck folds to fit in the shell. > Unless, you're talking about the Stone Age, I'd say you're argument doesn't hold water. Tell me what you are referring to by "chalk era", and I'll tell you if a fluent English speaker who is ignorant of geology and paleontology (i.e., me) will understand it in English. > > > 3) Specifically regarding creatures: Nearly every creature with a na= me > > > has a *descriptive* common name, and all Linnean names of things are > > > descriptive, in the Latin language. > > Ardipithecus ramidus is an extinct hominid. "Ramidus" looks like a Latin > word > meaning "branchy", but in this name it isn't. Both "ardi" and "ramid" are > from the Afar language. "Pongo" (orangutan) is from some Bantu > word "impungu". In "Netta peposaca" (a kind of duck), "peposaca" is > Guaran=ED. "Selmes" (a mousebird) is an anagram of "Messel" (in Hessen, > Germany), where it was found. For lots more examples, see > www.curioustaxonomy.net. > Thank you for pointing out that not all Linnean names are Latin derived. I hereby retract the ", in the Latin language" clause from my statement. Now, to the point of 3), can you provide examples of Linnaen names that are *not= * descriptive. (For the record, I consider something like "*Verreaux's Eagle*= ( *Aquila verreauxii*)" to be descriptive.) > > > 4) As such, I see no reason why a descriptive cmene should not be > > > preferable to a borrowed foreign cmene in *every* case. > > > > I am hereby inviting discussion, critique, etc. regarding the above fro= m > > anyone who wishes to. > > Icelandic is one of the languages whose regulators are most zealous about > native words. The word for elephant (f=EDll) is from Arabic, though it's = easy > to make a short description of an elephant that is sufficient to identify > it > as such. "ens=EDm" (enzyme) is from Greek, though there is a native-looki= ng > synonym. "tomb=F3la" (carslanu cunterjvi) is from Italian. > > Pierre > That's actually really interesting. I'm told that French is rather zealous about not borrowing words as well, to the point of having an official governmental department with the charge of proscribing French and figuring out what to call new things. (I'm also told that the French /people/ don't care nearly as much as the French /government/, but that's OT IMO.) My question is, are you mentioning this merely to mention it, or are you mentioning it with the intention of providing an argument? --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --005045015a1864d03904906c0e8c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 8:52 PM, Pierre = Abbat <phma@phma= .optus.nu> wrote:
On Thursday 16 September 2010 17:07:16 Jonathan Jones wro= te:
> Reposted from a thread on the jbovlaste group:
>
> My entire argument regarding Lojban names for things is as follows: > > 1) Borrowing words from other languages (fu'ivla) is a Bad Th= ing (
> > http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/Bad-Thing.html) and sho= uld only be done
> > when there is NO OTHER WAY. This means ANY language, including La= tin.
> >
> > 2) Fluent jbopre are expected to be able to understand any gismu,= cmavo,
> > lujvo, etc. that they see without the need to consult a dictionar= y.

A fluent jbopre who is ignorant of geology and paleontology won't=
understand "bakrycedra". One who has never heard of a plonebrespa= may
erroneously think it's a turtle whose neck folds to fit in the shell.

Unless, you're talking about the Stone Age, I&#= 39;d say you're argument doesn't hold water. Tell me what you are r= eferring to by "chalk era", and I'll tell you if a fluent Eng= lish speaker who is ignorant of geology and paleontology (i.e., me) will un= derstand it in English.
=A0
> > 3) Specifically regarding creatures: Nearly every creature with a= name
> > has a *descriptive* common name, and all Linnean names of things = are
> > descriptive, in the Latin language.

Ardipithecus ramidus is an extinct hominid. "Ramidus" looks= like a Latin word
meaning "branchy", but in this name it isn't. Both "ardi= " and "ramid" are
from the Afar language. "Pongo" (orangutan) is from some Bantu word "impungu". In "Netta peposaca" (a kind of duck), &= quot;peposaca" is
Guaran=ED. "Selmes" (a mousebird) is an anagram of "Messel&q= uot; (in Hessen,
Germany), where it was found. For lots more examples, see
www.curioustax= onomy.net.

Thank you for pointing out that not= all Linnean names are Latin derived. I hereby retract the ", in the L= atin language" clause from my statement. Now, to the point of 3), can = you provide examples of Linnaen names that are *not* descriptive. (For the = record, I consider something like "Verreaux's Eagle (Aqu= ila verreauxii)" to be descriptive.)
=A0
> > 4) As such, I see no reason why a descriptive cmene should not be=
> > preferable to a borrowed foreign cmene in *every* case.
>
> I am hereby inviting discussion, critique, etc. regarding the above fr= om
> anyone who wishes to.

Icelandic is one of the languages whose regulators are most zealous a= bout
native words. The word for elephant (f=EDll) is from Arabic, though it'= s easy
to make a short description of an elephant that is sufficient to identify i= t
as such. "ens=EDm" (enzyme) is from Greek, though there is a nati= ve-looking
synonym. "tomb=F3la" (carslanu cunterjvi) is from Italian.

Pierre

That's actually really i= nteresting. I'm told that French is rather zealous about not borrowing = words as well, to the point of having an official governmental department w= ith the charge of proscribing French and figuring out what to call new thin= gs. (I'm also told that the French /people/ don't care nearly as mu= ch as the French /government/, but that's OT IMO.)

My question is, are you mentioning this merely to mention it, or are yo= u mentioning it with the intention of providing an argument?

--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe d= enpa bu

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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